Warbird Information Exchange

Thanks Bud,

I do!

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"Hindsight is usually 20% off!"

The COMPANY gets fined for killing or maiming people. An A&P is on his own and faces jail on his own.
As for your mate the cardiaoligist. I hope he washes his hands befor he touches my aircraft!!!

Rgds Ckin

MB,
Simple answer buddy-Passion for the life. Getting out of the clock out line to go put in a couple extra hours to help get an airplane to the gate for the morning flight. Saying "screw this job! I'm gonna go work in an auto parts store!!' then having the skydrol and 115/145 rise up in your veins and back you go. Alienating your kids and wife until you have no kids and wifey is long gone down the road and you're still beating on tinware. It's the passion , if you don't understand, I couldn't explain it to you in 300 years.
I finally reconciled with my daughter this past Christmas after 23 years of not communicating, I've lost two marriages and who knows how many 'friends' because of my stupid addiction to airplane work, tried other things, left pretty good, stay clean, well paying jobs to go back out in the pouring rain, in the middle of the night to have rainwater and hydraulic fluid runniing down my arm into my boxers to get some danged airplane off the ramp and wouldn't trade one second of whats gone in the past, I'll probably be packed out of some hanger toes up and a drill motor in my cooling hand with a huge self satisfied smile on my face-it's the passion for the work

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

For some clarification. I didn't post the A&P requirments so anyone could get up on their soap box. It was strictly tongue in cheek. This list could be modified for just about any occupation. How 'bout the poor CFI in some FBO that has to live with four other CFI's just to pay the rent. I think we all do this because we love it and we all take very seriously the responsibilities that come with the signature. I'm studying to get my IA soon and I certainly don't expect to get rich off it. I do however enjoy the challenge of taking something that was not working correctly, troubleshooting the problem and repairing it. Essentially the picture of the birds has a lot of truth to it although again it could apply to several occupations. How many surgeons would like to work in an operating room that no one had cleaned up from the previous surgery? For every "glamorous" job, there are many support roles that are absolutely essential but go unnoticed until someone screws up. The best way I've heard the A&P role is this. We are nothing more than a 7/16 wrench. When nothing is wrong with the plane and no inspections are due, then the wrench is put in the tool box with a blanket on top and pushed into the corner. But just let something break or an inspection comes up, it's a mad dash to get that wrench out of the box and put it back on the pedestal so the plane can get fixed. As soon as it's fixed, the process starts all over. I've come to accept that as part of the job but I also know that without the mechanics, pilots are nothing more than guys with cool looking sunglasses. On the other side of the coin, without pilots flying the planes, there would be no need for mechanics. A symbionic relationship if there ever was one!!!

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The more I learn about aircraft, the more I realize I still have to learn.

I will post a joke about mechanics and pilots. I think it is pretty good and so I'll put it on as its own topic on Hangar.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I thought your comparison between what a doctor has to learn/know and an A & P, was a bit of a slant at best. So yesterday at the dentist I got some info.

There is a tech school at Denver Metro airport, BJC, that advertises a 20 month course to get your A & P, not sure about the cost, but time wise it is 1 and 2/3 years, I assume a normal 5 day 8 hour week, not sure. I have heard the cost mentioned as $30k to $40K, again I am not at all sure, and I don't know what the admission requirements are, if any. I'd guess if you have the money, they got the time as the old Hank Williams song goes. Obviously the new grad is not going to be an ace wrench the day he leaves school.

Both medical school and dental school are for a full 4 years. And to gain admission you need the undergraduate 4 year degree, with top grades, and if you are going to prosper in medical school your undergrad degree needs to have pre med courses like biology. I think classes and intern work is a lot more than a normal work week, and there is a tremendous amount of home study involved also. So that is 8 years of formal education at a high level.

Beyond school, each profession has its own challenges and rewards. Being a doctor used to be very lucrative, but now much compensation is set by insurance companies or Medicare and the revenues are down and the red tape expenses up. Normally a doctor does not have to work out on the ramp at Reno or under a hot engine dripping oil, but on the other hand how many or us would have the stomach to do what nurses and doctors handle in an emergency room on any Sat night?

Both professions require skill, training, and judgement and can be a life or death matter. For the doctor it can be immediate. At least the mechanic has the pilot preflight and the run up as a 2nd check on his work. I hope we have enough good folks in both and that they find the work they were looking for. Here in Aspen our FBO was started by local guys who were doctors and pilots. The customer, whether patient or owner, needs help when he comes in , and it seems there is some similarity between good doctors and good mechs. And there is such a thing a "bedside manner" or manners that makes a good one even if it is an A & P. You may be working on an machine, but the machine doesn't exist alone. It is owned or flown by someone.

If any A & P thinks they do not get enough respect/pay, then think about teachers who have a vital job and are not at all well paid.

I have asked some of the warbird A & P s if they have considered or would rather be doing something more normal like being a teacher, lawyer, or salesman, but they like what they do.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Then again, the teacher doesn't face criminal prosecution if he or she were to graduate a sub standard student.

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"If its red or dusty - DON'T TOUCH IT!

Flyboy, There is a lot of talk about such criminal prosecution, but not much in the way of facts. So do you have any of those facts, either about an A & P school being sued or the A & P themselves? Or is it just sort of a legend of aviation. If any schools have been sued or found liable, I would bet that most often it woudl be some type of financial fraud, that is not givng the students what was promised for the money.

Schools and teachers have had many lawsuits, teachers operate under many regs and restrictions, some logical and some not so much.
An A& P is certainly not the only one who has liability to consider.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

YES!!!

In 30 years in this business I've seen about a dozen A&Ps either loose their licenses, have their licenses suspended, been ordered to retest or in the worse case criminally prosecuted.

I've seen A&Ps violated for trying to conceal a DUI, violating maintenance procedures, signing off inspections via the telephone and presenting fraudulent A&P licenses.. Look at some of the mechanics who were at Sabertech after the Valujet incident, I think one of the A&Ps in the feeding chain got a hefty fine, his A&P permanently revoked and 6 months in jail. You're right up the road from me, the next time to run into a Denver FSDO PMI ask him or her about violations within our own back yard. They won't give you details for obvious reasons but they are happening and I would have to say that the Denver FSDO is probably one of the more lenient FSDOs A&Ps will deal with.

Here's a few other cases...

http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/3436

http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/3044

http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/3559

http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/3642

http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/ ... r01-02.pdf
There have been many flight schools and A&P schools that have happened to.

http://www.faa.gov/mechanics/retesting/


I'd take the liability of a teacher any day over my A&P. Screw up as a teacher, you're fired. Screw up as an A&P, not only do you loose your job but you risk your license and criminal prosecution.

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"If its red or dusty - DON'T TOUCH IT!

I am maried to a teacher. They have their problems too! She was in a school once were a disruptive boy stuck his hand up the skirt of his teacher. She reacted as any women would being assulted like that. She slapped him. Result was she was fired and prosecuted for assult. A well respected teacher with twenty five years experience lost her job, pension and got a criminal record for reacting normaly to sexual assult.
The kid was back in school the next day.
Give me a blocked 737 toilet at three in the morning ANYTIME!!

Rgds Cking

This wasn't for work performed on an aircraft. This was for improper packaging and labelling the containers for the removed oxygen generator cartridges. (IE, hazmat shipping)

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If God had wanted man to fly behind a flat motor, Pratt Whitney would've built one.

Nuff said


They were still violated under Title 14 as those components had work cards that were signed off for work not performed and those involved still had their A&Ps pulled. Since then the FAA treats handling of Hazmat with relation to aircraft components in the same manner as performing maintenance.

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"If its red or dusty - DON'T TOUCH IT!

I think I have the facts correct on Valuejet. The mechanics did not correclty handle harardous cargo. This was not some nutty TSA guy searching a grandmother. Rather it was O2 cannisters that really are hazardous and could and did catch on fire and cause the crash killing all on board. They were not handled correctly or safely.

I hope there was prosecution. I think those directly involved should at least never be in such a postion again around the public or any airplane, and perhaps given criminal sentences.

What is the difference between this and a school cafateria that served food that was not refrigerated and poisoned and killed kids?

Do you think an A & P should not have any legal responsibilty for what he does?

Flyboy, you tell me to go to the Denver FSDO and then say they won't give out the records. So what would be the point of asking if you know in advance that you can't get results.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Agree
Both are still criminal IMO
Not at all - People's lives are in your hands when you sign something off - that carries a lot of responsibility

They'll at least tell you that folks (A&Ps) in our parts are 1. Investigated when there is a mishap, 2. Fined and 3. Jailed if the violation is blatant. Point here is A&Ps being prosecuted and fined is not a "legend," and I'd bet in some of the cases shown those A&Ps were probably sued by their former (and I stress former) customers.

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"If its red or dusty - DON'T TOUCH IT!