11/22/08 flipped over Stearman- What's it worth?

[Dan Jones]

Well, once a Stearman goes so far into a swing that the rudder (and full power!) won't bring it back, it's just about a done deal. If you're lucky you can firewall it, arrest the swing, and get it airborne again before you hit something, as you'll usually have departed the runway by this time at some sort of exotic angle, but if you stay with the landing and try to correct the swing with the brake all she'll do is sort of trip over the outboard braking wheel and the subsequent lower wing tip and end up on her back. There's LOTS of wartime pictures of upside down, ground-looped Stearmans. If the landing gear wasn't the masterpiece of over-engineering that it is, a lot of them would have folded the outboard gear leg under the airplane, but a Stearman's landing gear is nothing if not rugged. I've never ground-looped one (knock wood), though I did have to just slug my poor Continental to full power a couple of years ago at a fly-in breakfast while landing to avoid one. Salvaged the landing as I was able to blast her around straight and the runway was nice and long but it was a gusty morning. I can tell you that it's an awful feeling when she takes a swing, you catch her with full rudder, she hesitates a second and then continues the swing. That's when the old W670 went dang near instantly to full power and blew her around straight. In thrust we trust!

Dan

Last edited by Dan Jones on Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[JBoyle]

Not that I'm in the market, though I do have friends who are Stearman experts I could impose upon for advise and help to fix it...

Are you sure the wings need replacing...they don't look damaged in the photos...but I'm no expert.

[Stearman75972]

The top wings are history as far as I am concerned as I would not trust them at all. The lower wings will have to very carefully checked but I would like new one I can trust. I have bought a number of Stearman's for parts. I received on set of wings that looked great but when I took off the fabric all I was able to save was three wing ribs to hang on the wall and the compression ribs. Check out Big Sky Stearman and look at the construction of the wings. www.bigskystearman.com

[Kyleb]

Not that I'm in the market, though I do have friends who are Stearman experts I could impose upon for advise and help to fix it...

Are you sure the wings need replacing...they don't look damaged in the photos...but I'm no expert.

The issue is whether the owner will allow you to cut the fabric loose and inspect the wings before purchasing the project. If s/he will, you can make a decision with most of the facts in hand. If not, you have to decide if you're an optimist or a pessimist. Optimists frequently end up upside down in projects, because they bid based on "that'll buff right out", win the auction, and the reality is that there is hidden damage. Pessimists assume the worst case, typically don't win auctions, but rarely wind up upside down on the projects/bids they do win...

[Obergrafeter]

Don't know about the Stearman, but the 195 on the same sight looks like it will buff right out!

[flyride]

Dan's commentary is 100% spot on.

Better not to groundloop at all, but once you are fully past the point of normal recovery, giving up the runway centerline and committing to the direction the nose is going may offer a better outcome. Langewiesche has some relevant commentary on this.

Oh, and sometimes you can't get instant power out of those old Continentals - they are happy to cough off your request for power if you get too ham-fisted with the throttle. Groundloops don't always wait for leisurely power applications, however.

Well, once a Stearman goes so far into a swing that the rudder (and full power!) won't bring it back, it's just about a done deal. If you're lucky you can firewall it, arrest the swing, and get it airborne again before you hit something, as you'll usually have departed the runway by this time at some sort of exotic angle, but if you stay with the landing and try to correct the swing with the brake all she'll do is sort of trip over the outboard braking wheel and the subsequent lower wing tip and end up on her back.

[Airplanejunkie]

Anybody else remembering the thread some time back with the kid strapped to the upper wing of a Stearman?

[Dan Jones]

Oh, and sometimes you can't get instant power out of those old Continentals - they are happy to cough off your request for power if you get too ham-fisted with the throttle. Groundloops don't always wait for leisurely power applications, however.

That's completely true, and looking back on it it was a perfect scenario for her to "rich cut" and hesitate, but at the time we were a fair ways up sh-t creek and getting farther by the nanosecond and it was kind of one of those all or nothing moments. I felt bad for abusing her like that, but my father, who was in the front seat and had been an aero-engine man all his life and fussed over that -670 like it was one of his kids, afterwards he just gave that old engine a happy pat and said "When you have to put the spurs to her at a moment like that, don't worry about it - she'll take it." Fortunately he was right and we haven't had a repeat.

[Stearman75972]

Just got an e-mail from Salvex, Inc. as they will not take less than $30,000 for it. Looking at it again, It is very possible the back of the fuselage has been broken. I really think they are dreaming. I hope someone will keep us posted as to what it does end up selling for.

[Kyleb]

Just got an e-mail from Salvex, Inc. as they will not take less than $30,000 for it. Looking at it again, It is very possible the back of the fuselage has been broken. I really think they are dreaming. I hope someone will keep us posted as to what it does end up selling for.

There are still enough optimists around that someone will pay that for it, in hopes of he can get away with replacing the prop, straightening the fin, and doing a runout inspection on the crank.

And I hope he's right, and after all is said and done, gets the deal of the century.

But he'll probably be disappointed.

[bdk]

Good luck! There probably is a buyer for that with $30K though. Just may take some time to find him or her. Lots of Stearman projects out there for less that may need the same amount of work.

[Dan Jones]

Just got an e-mail from Salvex, Inc. as they will not take less than $30,000 for it. Looking at it again, It is very possible the back of the fuselage has been broken. I really think they are dreaming. I hope someone will keep us posted as to what it does end up selling for.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think her back might be broken?

[Stearman75972]

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think her back might be broken?[/quote]

Stearman's are a solidly built airplane but they have mass. The amount of swing for the tail to go all the way over makes me wonder if there will be damage. The only way to see if you take off the bird cage covering off and check the fuselage. I have bought five Stearman's so far and looked at another dozen. My eye is getting really good at spotting places where there will be damage. If I was close enough I would go and view it. I have bid only $8,500 for it as that is all I think it is worth by looking at the pictures. I tend to be conservative as it is not what you see that worries me but it is what you don't see.

[Dan Jones]

The pictures aren't the best but I don't see any wrinkles in the fuselage fabric. My first one had it's fin and rudder just destroyed in the accident and then got dragged off the field upside down behind a tractor, but didn't suffer any fuselage damage (apart from the main gear being ripped off in the crash). My second one pretty much got rolled up in a ball but suffered no real fuselage damage at all aft of about station #3. But of course, until you see it up close in person it's all a crap shoot.

Dan

[JBoyle]

The issue is whether the owner will allow you to cut the fabric loose and inspect the wings before purchasing the project...

I'm not sure they have a choice.
The wings will eventually have to be inspected before it flies again. True, they may not want you to do it now...but if they're fair, they'll see the reason why it needs to be done. The question is is it pre or post money changing hands.

IMHO, if they said "NO", I wouldn't bid. Kind of like looking at a used car and the seller won't let you put it on a rack to check for rust.