Lotsa questions on the B-25B

Hemiman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:30 pm

I know the 3rd flew the "Dutch" Mitchells in early 42' in New Guinea. Believe they were "C" models though.

They removed the ventral turret and installed a droppable fuel tank when they converted to strafers.

Bill

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:35 pm

Actually I'm not that deep. I just didn't read your entire post :twisted:

Silent Siege by Bert Weber deals very througholy with Japense sub activities
and US coastal defense efforts off the west coast in WWII and has quite a bit of info on the B-25 vs whale episode. It came out in the 60s but is still around has is vol #2.

The Inspector · **Posted:** Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:45 pm

Megaptera is a Humpback Whale,
A Japanese submarine did surface and shell the Oregon coast and another sub launched a small seaplane that dropped a pair of small bombs near Astoria (I believe) and the Japanese did send balloon bombs to America killing a minister and a couple kids on a church outing in Central Oregon (not all of the bombs have been found so be careful stompin' around out in the woods even as far as Wisconson because they are still armed and the explosives are 70 years old).

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:38 pm

This is very interesting. So this is truly a whale of a tale? I'd love to understand the origin of this story.

Ryan

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:18 am

Quote:

A Japanese submarine did surface and shell the Oregon coast

I-25 shelled Fort Stevens ie Battery Russell June 1942 destroying the basketball court :shock:

Quote:

another sub launched a small seaplane that dropped a pair of small bombs near Astoria

actually the same sub but in was way south near Brookings in Aug 1942. This was also the same sub attacked
by the Hudson flown by Jean Daughtery of the 42nd BG and sank the Russian sub L-16 in Nov. 1942.
The I-25 was off the mouth of the Columbia in Dec 1941 (the only Japanese sub there) but was never attacked by
a B-25.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:59 am

warbird1 wrote:

2) Were any of the 23 delivered to the RAF as Mitchell Mk. 1's used in combat by the U.K.? Same question as above plus pictures.

They were allocated British serials in the range FK161 - FK183, matching a mixture of serials in the 40-2313 - 2345 range.

My emphasis added:

Quote:

The Royal Air Force (RAF) was an early customer for the B-25 via Lend-Lease. The RAF was the only force to use the B-25 on raids against Europe from bases in the United Kingdom. The USAAF used the Martin B-26 Marauder for this purpose instead.

The first Mitchells to reach the RAF were 23 B-25Bs which were designated Mitchell I by the RAF and assigned the RAF serials FK161 through FK183. They were delivered in August 1941, and were assigned to No 111 Operational Training Unit based in the Bahamas. These planes were used exclusively for training and familiarization and never achieved operational status.

The first operational B-25s to serve with the RAF were B-25Cs and Ds, which were designated Mitchell II by the RAF. The first operational B-25s for the RAF were a batch of B-25Cs. Some of these were used by No. 13 OTU in England, but again most of them went to No. 111 OTU in the Bahamas. A total of 93 Mitchell Is and IIs had been delivered to the RAF by the end of 1942. The Mitchell II served with No. 2 Group, the RAF's tactical medium bomber force. These planes were assigned to Nos 98, 180, 226 and 329 Squadrons.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b25_22.html

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:07 am

Further on the British Mitchell Mk.I machines; Jerry Scutts' Crowood book on the type says "23 aircraft, 21 arrived at destination by air, 1, FK178 for SBA crashed in US. 1 balance by air; 3 to UK; FK161, 162, 165. 18 to Nassau (11 OTU) with SBA; one on special duty, FK168 on loan to 45 Group RAFTC Canada."

I don't know what SBA means, and I'm guessing RAFTC is Royal Air Force Training Command, to do with the huge Empire Air Training component in Canada.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:24 am

warbird1 wrote:

3) Regarding the remotely operated ventral turret on the "B" model, can anyone provide info? Where did the gunner sit on the airplane, how much view did he have? Was it the same system as the remotely operated turrets on the B-29 or different? Details?

Some brief details:
Gunner sat on / by the turret.
His sighting, as Jack's touched on, was through a periscope mirror system, arranged like a faceted 'slot' between the guns.
Very poor view.
As stated before, very - generationally - different.

Apparently, according to Scutts, often removed in US service but (on later models, obviously) "non-US Mitchell operators, in particular the RAF, mastered the complex lower turret and made it an integral part of the aircraft's defence when flying in tight formations."
How true that is, and how effective the ventral turrets ever were, given the poor view, I'd reserve judgement.

Stuff, including pics and manuals here: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/ind ... try1153095

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircra ... -3145.html

It was slow to employ, taking 55 secs to lower and requiring 11 separate tasks to fire the guns., as well as weighing 600lb. As a bonus the aiming mirrors 'often caused optical distortion, making accurate tracking and firing ... extremely difficult'. I'll say it would!

Quote:

4) Why was the tail gun removed from the "B" model? What was the purpose of the clear plexiglass encasement over the tail if there was no gunner? Was it simply for observation to look for enemy fighters or perhaps to take pictures for battle damage assessment or what?

Answer seems to be 'weight', and a change in the defensive gunnery system. With the new (heavier) ventral and dorsal turrets, rather than the previous flexibly-mounted gun positions, there was no need for a tail position, and being able to remove armour (and the rest) from there would have helped. Plexiglass (trade name) may have been left to provide the discussed occasional observation point.

HTH!

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Wow, thanks for the detailed info, James, I appreciate it! It was MOST helpful!

Quote:

The first Mitchells to reach the RAF were 23 B-25Bs which were designated Mitchell I by the RAF and assigned the RAF serials FK161 through FK183. They were delivered in August 1941, and were assigned to No 111 Operational Training Unit based in the Bahamas. These planes were used exclusively for training and familiarization and never achieved operational status.

I never knew the British had military airplanes in the Bahamas during the war. I knew it was a British territory, but never knew it was considered worth defending. What a cush job, to fly B-25's in a training role in paradise while everyone else was getting shot at! I think I would have felt guilty being stationed there during the war, knowing all of my friends were doing the hard "slogging" against the Germans and Japanese.

JDK wrote:

I don't know what SBA means, and I'm guessing RAFTC is Royal Air Force Training Command, to do with the huge Empire Air Training component in Canada.

James, I'm really surprised that you don't know what a Sovereign Base Area is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Base_Areas

James, you rock!

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:43 pm

I went back and edited my previous post to remove the inaccurate information and the links to the inaccurate information. not that anyone would ever confuse me with an expert

but I thought it's best not to populate inaccurate info in the case someone someday stumbles upon it without reading the full context.

Glad Jack corrected that.

Thanks, Ryan

Jarink1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:21 pm **Posts:** 117

This might help explain how the gunner used the remote control ventral turret.

Tail gun installation in the B-25A

This was a NAA factory job, but field-modified tail gun installations on the C/D were generally similar. Many had only a single gun due to the obviously tight fit back there!

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Wasn't it Jimmy Doolittle himself who said that you could teach someone to play a concert grand piano before you'd ever teach them to operate that remote ventral turret...?

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:39 pm

A few more views of the ventral turret.

Ryan

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Thanks for those pictures, Ryan. It really helps visualize exactly how that turret worked. That must have been tiring just kneeling there against that chestpad and eyeing the gun sight for extended periods of time. Ergonomics sure weren't addressed in that aircraft!

BTW, what is the "definitive" book on B-25's? Is there one? I have several B-25 books, but none of them I have go into the level of detail to make them a reference book.

Any suggestions from anyone?

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:22 pm

I like "B-25 Mitchell: The Magnificent Medium," N. L. Avery, Phalanx.

When I was a kid I carried around both of the Squadron/Signal books on the B-25 in my backpack. I spent many an hour reading those books in class when I was supposed to be doing work. I must have read those books at least 100 times over. They were totally destroyed by age 10. I built a plastic B-25 model for each of the paint schemes in the B-25 Mitchell In Action "centerfold" LOL.

The ventral turret was defintiely uncomfortable, not very functional, and not popular with the crews. In the mide 1990s my father and I came accross several of the base units for the ventral turrets in a junk yard in Fresno, CA. I always wondered how so many of them ended up in a Fresno, CA junk yard. IT was actually a really great junk yard. We also 20 or more twin .30 machine gun mounts for SBDs as well as one for a PV-1 Ventura tunnel gun. Also 2 Bell twin .50 tail machine gun mounts for B-25s. Oh how I miss the days when you could find that stuff in hidden places like that. I'm sure there are some more out there, but not many.

Ryan

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