Not something you see every day

[warbird1]

I'm salting a bowl of popcorn right now. Please continue.

Yes, amusing indeed! I would love to see the classic David vs. Goliath match up.

"And right here in this corner, we have Vlado Lenoch, with his P-51, Moonbeam McSwine, and in this corner we have Ryan Short in his L-4, representing the Alamo Squadron".

"Now shake hands and go back to your corners and fight!"

Ryan vs. Vlado - who would win?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycp2VrKfm-A

[mlenoch]

My bet is on Ryan!
VL

[whistlingdeath77]

that mustang is the new champion!

[mike furline]

Frank Andruss Jr.
Whistling Death Corsairs
"Keeping the Corsair story alive"
WW2 Corsair pilot re-enactor

I guess this explains it.

[whistlingdeath77]

Frank Andruss Jr.
Whistling Death Corsairs
"Keeping the Corsair story alive"
WW2 Corsair pilot re-enactor

I guess this explains it.

sir, if you are a pilot i have the upmost respect for you and your training. Your right, i am not a pilot not because i choose not to be but because i have no money for flight school. However, if you select the stunt plane to win in a dog fight against a P-51 Mustang i stand to say your wrong. I mean your taking America's greatest fighter plane,( which fought against Germany's best,) and down grading it to lose to a stunt plane? The funny thing is, is that a P-51 may stay in the air longer anyways untill the other aircraft runs out of fuel. I'm not sure what the range is on a Mustang but it's got to be great cause it seemed to escort B-17's really well!!!

[JDK]

I also recall similar stories of an Israeli observation pilot who managed to cause an Egyptian pilot to fly into the sea, in the very early years of the Arab-Israeli conflicts. Can't recall the details though.

There were a couple of those, the reverse of the one you are thinking of is the Lysander's last victory.

As a result, the two Lysanders were thrown into the early part of the Palestine War. One of these, or perhaps the third surviving Lysander, was soon involved in an extraordinary aerial combat with an Israeli Avia C210 (Czech-built Messerschmitt Bf 109) on June 9, 1948. Air Commodore Muhammad Abd al-Munaim Miqaati, one of Egypt’s first three military pilots, and now Deputy Director General of the REAF, was due to fly from al-Arish to Cairo-Almaza, but had been expecting trouble. This would, in fact, be the first day of the so-called Ten Day War, which followed the collapse of the first UN Truce. As Miqaati recalled: ‘It was Condition Red. I had been advised to keep the radio on, but I was still nervous as I set across the Mediterranean. Fortunately my gunner – I don’t remember his name – was a keen-sighted man and he spotted an Israeli Messerschmitt as it maneuvered into position to attack. Of course, my Lysander was a very old kind of airplane, but I’d flown these for a long time. Still, we were at a big disadvantage and you’d expect such a contest could only end one way… The pilot of the Israeli aircraft came up behind us. I told my gunner to fire just as the Messerschmitt came into range and I went down to about 100 feet. Then the gunner fired and I throttled right back. You know the Lysander can drop like a stone to land in a field, like they did when the RAF took spies in and out of France. The Israeli must have been concentrating on keeping me in his sights because he dropped his nose to follow. He overshot and went right in, almost level with me. I honestly felt sick in my stomach and, I don’t know why, I saluted him. Then we flew straight back to Cairo.’

The Israeli pilot was Bob Vickman, and his loss remained unexplained for the Israelis until Miqaati’s account was published.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_254.shtml

The history of what's now known as 'dissimilar air combat' DAC is full of such accounts. Probability favours the advantaged, but it is no certain thing.

Regards,

[RMAllnutt]

Frank Andruss Jr.
Whistling Death Corsairs
"Keeping the Corsair story alive"
WW2 Corsair pilot re-enactor

I guess this explains it.

sir, if you are a pilot i have the upmost respect for you and your training. Your right, i am not a pilot not because i choose not to be but because i have no money for flight school. However, if you select the stunt plane to win in a dog fight against a P-51 Mustang i stand to say your wrong. I mean your taking America's greatest fighter plane,( which fought against Germany's best,) and down grading it to lose to a stunt plane? The funny thing is, is that a P-51 may stay in the air longer anyways untill the other aircraft runs out of fuel. I'm not sure what the range is on a Mustang but it's got to be great cause it seemed to escort B-17's really well!!!

Hi Frank... it really depends on the type of combat you are talking about. The Mustang is faster, but the Extra is far, far more manoeverable. The Mustang could never hope to out turn it (just as it couldn't out-turn a Zero). In addition the Extra is probably rated to a much higher g-loading, so if the mustang even tried to keep up with it, it would probably fall apart... assuming both pilots could handle the g's. The Extra pilot, unless he was bounced, should easily walk away from the fight.

Cheers,
Richard

[Steve T]

James--

Boyyyy does that scenario ever want to be a painting...any idea what the markings on the two aircraft looked like??

S.

[Tiger Tim]

The Extra has about half the wing loading of the Mustang (I looked it up) so I imagine it can change directions a heck of a lot faster. One point to the Extra.

The Mustang has guns. One point to the Mustang.

Feel free to award points to either side, we can total it all up when we run out of ideas and see who won.

-Tim

[snj-5]

Providing you could give the Extra some firepower that was actually capable of
knocking a Mustang out of the air (without affecting the Extra's performance too much),
my guess is that a good Mustang driver could make it so the Extra driver could never
achieve a good shooting solution, and a good Extra driver could make it so that the
Mustang driver could never achieve a good shooting solution.

I'm thinking of the Extra as being an extremely light-weight, highly maneuverable (not as fast) Zero.
The right Mustang pilot can still best the Extra with the proper tactics. Similarly, the right Extra pilot
can best the Mustang as well (again, only if the Extra had some viable firepower on-board <grins>).

Would be fun match to watch!

[Dan K]

James--

Boyyyy does that scenario ever want to be a painting...any idea what the markings on the two aircraft looked like??

S.

http://101squadron.com/101real/assets/i ... ios199.jpg

http://101squadron.com/101real/people/vickman.html

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/eb3.jpg

[6trn4brn]

Frank...do you know who Vlado Lenoch is? Do a little bit of searching around here on WIX and you will come to understand that Mr Lenoch certainly knows what he is talking about

[whistlingdeath77]

Frank...do you know who Vlado Lenoch is? Do a little bit of searching around here on WIX and you will come to understand that Mr Lenoch certainly knows what he is talking about

let me ask you something. what's the ceiling for a p-51 mustang as compared to the other aircraft?

Range- Mustang
Ceiling- Mustang
Speed-Mustang
Firepower-Mustang
turn- Stunt plane
abled Gs- Stunt Plane
Armor plate-Mustang
Combat situation- Mustang,( provided a gunsight)

i see your point as to try to actually hit the aircraft with bullets and never getting a firing solution. But if you took a WW2 combat Mustang Veteran pilot what do you think he'd tell you?
The simple fact is that the stunt plane just may lose him in the clouds or lose sight of the mustang all together,( hide in the sun.) I'm just thinking of pure combat.

[Michel Lemieux]

Back to 4 basic ingredients.....

- Plane(s)
- Pilot experiences
- Starting scenarios
- And of course......luck

With this infinite combinations and endings are possible.

[mlenoch]

Frank:
For discussions sake, please size of aircraft-the smaller is harder to find and makes a smaller target. Plus, what kind of fight is this? Slashing? Knife fight? Etc?
VL
( I have $20 on Ryan! )