Warbird Information Exchange

folks,

dont react badly to contructive criticism, listen and learn from it.

The F2A is likely to be too far gone for anything really constructive, perhaps not so 20 years ago when Rob brought it to NHC attention, but most likely now.

The issue of it sitting in a marine reserve may well be the reason nothing was ever done 20 years ago.

This is why we do need to decide if it is the right test case.

(it does still form a good example of what has already been lost)


The issue of public petitions working or not working is something only a US Lobbiest can comment on, - other democracies do react to them, I have personal experience of that.

I still believe the petition goes to proove two things, one- its not just a minority of aircraft enthusiasts who think this policy should change, and second it allows others - public etc to be approached about supporting the cause.

Yes - you do still need more than just the petition, you do need a proffessional, well thought out detailed/evidenced proposal of what you do want to see happen, if not to the F@A at least to other aircraft that are still viable for recovery, or at least a survey of likely aircraft to determine if they are viable.

and yes, we have to make sure that we dont go off half cocked, and get people who are passionate becoming irrational or abusive etc, we need to be calm, cool and collected in what we are saying and doing.

It is an interesting situation to see this "strategy" being debated in a "public meeting" in the virtual world of the internet - lets let the debate continue so we can hear from everyone before we finalise what it is we will do.

Let people comment and criticise and help panel beat this into a workable strategy that we can all support.

Because it is being done here in "public" it is raising the awareness of this issue in anycase.

I still support a petition, using the F2A as at least exhibit 1, (as Rob did in bringing this issue to our notice) however the Vindicator? TBD seems a better actual test case but I recognise it has baggage or problems that seems to rule it out)

I still have the few we are trying to lobby, not recover something ourselves, I still think we CAN make a difference.

and I agree with Rob's first post's opinion that people with experience like Tarus should be able to guide us.

airnutz, I know your own views of the value of salt water recoveries, and dont disagree with you on the likely condition of this shallow depth F2A, however there is a rare P40F in Italy? that is of more use as a display to the public out of the water than in it, and yes it will never fly, and probably not last out of the water for too many years, but it is still accessible to more people to view, learn from, appreciate, than where it was sitting under water.

The crux of the issue with the F2A, the TBD is if they are going to rot away and someone else with money will pull them out and do "something" constructive with them, why wont NHC let that happen??

let the debate continue..........................lets keep it all constructive, polite and proffessional -and I dont consider it has'nt been todate, but lets be careful how we phrase our differing points of view please.


regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

robb, your strategy sounds well thought out to me. any way i can assist, please contact me. best, tom

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Rob, Tarus,

So the simple objective we need to lobby for is:

That the US Government / Secretary of Navy Transfer effective control of the "management, survey, review and release for recovery" of existing non-wargrave sunken USN airframes from the NHC to the National Museum of Naval Aviation, to ensure those viable to be recovered and preserved by NMNA & other US Government Museums, or approved bonefide Museums can be pursued while these artifacts are still in a fit condition to do so.

The rarity of the F2A and TBD, and the Mariner all being examples of extinct types able to be preserved through such efforts.

seems simple to argue, simple to get people behind, simple to rev up the media about - simple to win - lets do it!

regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Rob,

Don't know if there is anything I can do, since I'm in Japan. But please let me know if there is, I more than willing to help in any way I can.

Mac

better move fast as i've been told that the zebra mussel investation is crushing both ship & plane wrecks at an alarming rate. i posted this some time ago on another thread. they are the size of a human thumb nail on average, & there are 30,000 of them per square foot on the bottom of every great lake & every object that rest's their. i'm in the marine business for a living, so i get alot of feedback. trust me, time is of the essence!!! best, tom

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

robb, those invasive foreign **^^$$#_!! pests are at every depth, you can't even hardly walk on any great lakes beach or wade in the water without cutting your tootsies. picture 30'000 of your thumb nails per square foot on a rotting relic...... physics will eventually prevail. doesn't the naval aviation museum have marine biologists that can back up the deterioration process & the limited salvage time window?? or are they messing with guppies & gold fish?? best, tom

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

What is the status of this project Rob?

regards,

t~

I, too, am curious. This thread was started when I was on an extended out-of-towner--saw it for the first time today!

One tiny, little technical tweak to Taras L's "White Paper": PBM #59172 (that is, what remains of her) at the bottom of Lake Washington isn't the only remaining example of a Mariner. She is, of course, the only known remaining PBM-5 flying boat--a -5A amphib is looked after nicely by the kind folks at Pima.

(Ok, morphing back out of anal-retentive mode now...)

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Hi Lads,

Sorry, just got in. Boy has this thing taken off. Give everybody a little encouragement and look what happens. I had no idea that the archeological recovery issue was waiting in the wings. Great!

Perhaps we should divide up the duties somewhat. My initial thoughts were more directed at an emergancy response/preservation effort. In that light, we should try to gather a list of all qualified warbird pilots here in the US. Next, warbird owners private and foundation. Then the most important step is to querry them to see if they are onboard with the concept. If we get poo-pooed by them, this part of the project is junk. We need them to be on board in order to make this work. Most probably know each other anyway, and for all the input that we are trying to create a half-assed bunch of pilots to commandeer warbirds, bear in mind that we are trying to create a data base of talent to be at the disposal of the owners and museums that need help in as short a time as possible.

If someone can direct me to who may have the "lists", I will draft a letter explaining our concept and post it here for review. Then I will mail to all appropriate, at my cost, to see where we go and report back to the WIX Foundation. (by the way, can we call this an official WIX project? Did we get permission? Hey, just had a stupid thought...does everyone think that I am "THE Scott" WRG creator? I'm just a schmuck in Milwaukee)

I think that the media thing is great and perhaps someone else can take on the role of contacting all warbird related publications to get mention in their next issue. That means we need an official "address" to publish so if this thread is good, should that be the contact point for readers of the magazines?

Fund raising: I really think that corporate sponsors are a viable option and would be willing to coordinate an attack on some of them as well. If you take the vendor paper from Oshkosh this year, I could write hundreds of letters. Remember, it's easier to get $10 from 1000 people than $1000 from 10. Let me know what you guys think.

RE: the big picture of salvage, man that is going to be a project. Coordination of wreck location and the bureaucracy battles...whew I'll leave that to you experts. I think my head would explode. That is grounds, however, for big preservation money. Getting them out of the "deep" is one thing, where they go from there and who can/is willing to do the restorations may be another. I think that some real prioritization is required here to decide which wrecks to focus on. One great success, like "Glacier Girl" really makes a statement of credibility and opens more doors. Who would be the ultimate "owner" of the salvaged aircraft?

Are there any lawyers among us that can shed light on what it takes to actually create a tax exempt foundation to do what it is we speak of?

So....my brain is spinning. Oh yeah, what's a "sticky"?

_________________
"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."

i agree time is of the essence in a potential hurricane catastrophy etc. glad to see the ball is rolling on the flyable birds, but static displays & valuable memorabilia can't be ignored either. a plan needs to be included for that stuff too.

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!