NTSB Releases some Reports on GG Reno Crash from 2011

[bdk]

Looking at the report and the construction pics only makes me wonder what GG was really capable of when Jimmy finally decided to "Show that last hand" has he would probably put it.

Anyone in the racing community thinking about following his lead on modifying a P-51 design or you think its too much?

After all that effort on the airframe, why was Galloping Ghost 8 seconds behind Strega at the time of the crash? Didn't seem to be helping much.

[51fixer]

Looking at the report and the construction pics only makes me wonder what GG was really capable of when Jimmy finally decided to "Show that last hand" has he would probably put it.

Anyone in the racing community thinking about following his lead on modifying a P-51 design or you think its too much?

After all that effort on the airframe, why was Galloping Ghost 8 seconds behind Strega at the time of the crash? Didn't seem to be helping much.

Effort was made to have a super clean airframe it seems so you could use an engine that didn't have to be the ultimate/high cost engine. That way you could be in the top racers without having to outlay as much money IMHO.

[Tim Adams]

Even without the scoop is was not as slick as Voodoo and Strega. Voodoo and Strega don't have tape all over them like GG did.

[51fixer]

Even without the scoop is was not as slick as Voodoo and Strega. Voodoo and Strega don't have tape all over them like GG did.

I would guess that if Strega only ran 110" MP and a Hinton clone was driving GG, GG would be faster even with racer tape.

[N3Njeff]

Looking at the report and the construction pics only makes me wonder what GG was really capable of when Jimmy finally decided to "Show that last hand" has he would probably put it.

Anyone in the racing community thinking about following his lead on modifying a P-51 design or you think its too much?

After all that effort on the airframe, why was Galloping Ghost 8 seconds behind Strega at the time of the crash? Didn't seem to be helping much.

Effort was made to have a super clean airframe it seems so you could use an engine that didn't have to be the ultimate/high cost engine. That way you could be in the top racers without having to outlay as much money IMHO.

I think they were definatly on to something. I am no means a Strega or Voodoo fan (GO RARE BEAR) but GG really won me over for being of the water cooled variety

[bdk]

Effort was made to have a super clean airframe it seems so you could use an engine that didn't have to be the ultimate/high cost engine. That way you could be in the top racers without having to outlay as much money IMHO.

Maybe so, but you probably need both to win. GG also lost the Meredith Effect thrust.

The severe wing clip may have been an advantage in the straights, but I don't know how much straight there is at Reno at those speeds. The higher wing loading/area reduction may result in more drag in the turns. Hard to say what is optimal due to the lack of data.

One big structural advantage of the wing and stabilizer clip is that they both withstood 17g+ without failing from the reduced bending moment (remember the discussion about Reno speeds and wing stress?). If the airplane had broken up, the impact point would have been much different.

GG may have looked like it had less drag, but Strega has been around a while and has been optimized. Things like gear doors and the canopy gapping in flight on GG show a lack of development. If you were to accept that GG was cleaner, but it can only pull 120" reliably when Strega can pull 140", that is a problem right there. Spectre/LARS/GG had a history of Reno DNFs from engine failures.

[N3Njeff]

Effort was made to have a super clean airframe it seems so you could use an engine that didn't have to be the ultimate/high cost engine. That way you could be in the top racers without having to outlay as much money IMHO.

GG may have looked like it had less drag, but Strega has been around a while and has been optimized. Things like gear doors and the canopy gapping in flight on GG show a lack of development. If you were to accept that GG was cleaner, but it can only pull 120" reliably when Strega can pull 140", that is a problem right there. Spectre/LARS/GG had a history of Reno DNFs from engine failures.

Yep the others had been around for a while but you got to start somewhere.

[51fixer]

Maybe so, but you probably need both to win. GG also lost the Meredith Effect thrust.

I don't believe the recovery is a net +, ie more thrust than all the types of drag a cooling system of a P-51 produced. You still suffer some drag but are able to offset much of it. You have the surface drag of the area (wet area) of the skins that make up the scoop/doghouse/exit duct. The aerodynamics of air having to be directed around the scoop and the air mass entering and exiting the cooling system. By cooling without any of these items in the wind at all you have nothing to cause any drag except the weight of the ADI you haul around. At the start where you can turn that weight/mass into energy when you descend onto the course at the start of the race as a small benefit. I imagine your speeds will increase with each lap as the weight decreases and the ADI is consumed which is at a higher rate than other conventional racers.

GG may have looked like it had less drag, but Strega has been around a while and has been optimized. Things like gear doors and the canopy gapping in flight on GG show a lack of development. If you were to accept that GG was cleaner, but it can only pull 120" reliably when Strega can pull 140", that is a problem right there. Spectre/LARS/GG had a history of Reno DNFs from engine failures.

I guess you have a few segments to this debate. Concept, application and history.
I believe the concept of this type of cooling method is valid but the disaster that occurred was horrible and leaves everything else to be debated rather than proven. If the future of air racing was more sure I believe clones of this would appear.

[Matt Gunsch]

I have a question, or maybe it is more of a pet peeve. Is everyone too lazy to type out Galloping Ghost ? That was the planes name, not GG.

[Glenn Wegman]

Is everyone too lazy to type out Galloping Ghost ? That was the planes name, not GG.

The NTSB refers to it as GG in the report.

[Race 22 Crew]

Reason to be 8 seconds behind Strega.... It was only a heat race on Friday. No reason to push to hard and trash the engine early in the week. Just hard enough to maybe pick up a spot, he did make it around the Bear prior to the upset.

Spectre/LARS/GG had a history of Reno DNF's from engine failures, true, but so has Strega, Voodoo, and Rear Bear.

The Ghost was hitting speeds over 500 MPH only having/able to pull 120", I'd say the airframe cleanups worked. IIRC they were relying on the cleanups to get the speed, not having to overstress the engine. I think had we made it to the Sunday Gold, it would have been one hell of a race between the top four contenders.

Here's to Reno 2012

[JDK]

I'd like to say first that the loss of Mr Leeward, and those members of the audience as well as Galloping Ghost was a terrible tragedy, as I'm sure all posters would agree - and we must not appear to be overlooking that.

Thanks bdk for answering my earlier question, 'excitation' is a technical term, I'm ducking the 'coefficent of bogosity' though.

And I'm taking it from bdk's other statement that even 'classic' flutter may still hold surprises...

Certainly flutter on older aircraft can still be a challenge; after the restoration of the Shuttleworth Collection's 1931 Desoutter I, issues were found with the ailerons, and it was through investigations by one of the pilots engineering course at a Scottish university that they were able to resolve the issues. Understood in the 21st century, but an old aircraft throwing up some old design and rebuild aerodynamic issues. (Details from memory, btw.)
http://www.shuttleworth.org/shuttlewort ... .asp?ID=22

Maybe so, but you probably need both to win. GG also lost the Meredith Effect thrust.

My understanding is that the Meredith Effect significantly reduced the drag effect of the radiator, but was not a net thrust benefit, as is often understood. So if you had no traditional Mustang radiator configuration, you would have less drag. Confirmation either way welcome. (Conversely ejector exhausts, rather than straight ports, I understand offer net thrust over their added weight and drag costs.)

The mentions of the B-52's forward fuselage wrinkles (if I understand the references correctly) is correctly known as Wagner Tension Field, according to Structures: Or Why Things Don't Fall Down by (sometime aero-engineer) J.E. Gordon. The illustration, straight after the bias-cut dress image, which is related, is of the Westland Westminster.

For our engineers able to correct my understanding and wishing to play with the sources, and with equations enough to make them happy, see also: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=gU0 ... ld&f=false

And another reference, on PDF: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... ZhfbyKm2xQ

The original reference is the delightfully named: H. Wagner Ebene Blechwandtraiger mit sehr dunnen Stegblechen. Z. Flugtech. Motorluflseh. Vol. 20. p. 200. 1929.

(For readers, who like me, might be interested in the engineering but come out in a rash when offered equations, Gordon's book and his other, The New Science of Strong Materials, Or, Why You Don't Fall Through the Floor are both great reads.)
Regards,

[jschillereff]

After all that effort on the airframe, why was Galloping Ghost 8 seconds behind Strega at the time of the crash? Didn't seem to be helping much.

The crew chief stated that during that heat race "They wanted to go 1 mph faster than second place airplane. The idea was to go fast on less
power".
Jason

[bdk]

I type GG because I'm working off an iPad. I get confused with the P-38 too.

I really don't think that Reno is as much about the airframe as it is the reliability of the engine and the preparation. Sure Strega and Rare Bear have had engine failures, but you can't finish with an engine failure let alone win. If you have a high percentage of finishes, you stand a better chance.

There were also times when Rare Bear had a terrible record of reliability. I think a lot of it had to do with starting Reno preparations the week before the race. Strega is flown regularly for a top contender and the race engines have been developed over many years. There aren't many planes that won the first time out in recent memory. Stiletto might be an exception, but that was built by an experienced team with a previous winner, so they had a baseline and a lot of professional engineering help.

Leeward also had a history of blowing things up, even with seemingly good equipment. Jeannie, a proven winner, went a lot slower in his hands then it had the previous years.

[MX304]

The thing that stands out to me more than anything is the fact a Mustang can have a 17G on set in less than a second without suffering complete structural failure. That is one seriously strong airframe.