Dornier DO17 at Cosford today

davidwomacks · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:34 pm **Posts:** 195

Will the mass losses on both sides in the Russian campaign there has to be a lot of airframes still there its simply a matter of finding the places where they are. Russia/Ukraine is a big place and there's a lot of hiding places! I would suspect quite a few wrecks in the river near Stalingrad. Google Earth anyone?? haha.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:43 am

TBDude wrote:

DaveM2 wrote:

Until the one in the Russian lake surfaces, this is all we have of a significant type.

Do you have a specific lake/aircraft in mind .. or is that meant more as wishful thinking that one might still exist like some of the other amazing time capsules (P-39, Bf 109, Il-2, etc) found under similar conditions?

Yes it is a specific aircraft and a documented loss, the lake is one of the many smaller unamed ones. According to a couple of contacts it has been found. But the latter info came through a third party, so at best is a 'maybe' until further proof is forthcoming.

Russ Matthews · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:20 am

DaveM2 wrote:

TBDude wrote:

DaveM2 wrote:

Until the one in the Russian lake surfaces, this is all we have of a significant type.

Do you have a specific lake/aircraft in mind .. or is that meant more as wishful thinking that one might still exist like some of the other amazing time capsules (P-39, Bf 109, Il-2, etc) found under similar conditions?

Yes it is a specific aircraft and a documented loss, the lake is one of the many smaller unamed ones. According to a couple of contacts it has been found. But the latter info came through a third party, so at best is a 'maybe' until further proof is forthcoming.

Cool. If there's anything to it, I'm sure we'll read about it in Classic Wings someday ...

Flying Pencil · **Joined:** Sun May 04, 2008 11:31 am **Posts:** 161

DaveM2 wrote:

TBDude wrote:

DaveM2 wrote:

Until the one in the Russian lake surfaces, this is all we have of a significant type.

Do you have a specific lake/aircraft in mind .. or is that meant more as wishful thinking that one might still exist like some of the other amazing time capsules (P-39, Bf 109, Il-2, etc) found under similar conditions?

Yes it is a specific aircraft and a documented loss, the lake is one of the many smaller unamed ones. According to a couple of contacts it has been found. But the latter info came through a third party, so at best is a 'maybe' until further proof is forthcoming.

My Norwegian friend says their are THOUSANDS of documented war aircraft in the lakes.

He can only guess thousands more not documented.

In Norway, emergency landing places are:
Mountains
Trees
Lakes.

Take a guess what is popular.

Chris Brame · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Quote:

In Norway, emergency landing places are:
Mountains
Trees
Lakes.

And fjords?

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:42 pm

'Thousands' is a wild exaggeration. Remember most of the battles in Norwegian airspace took place over the coast, and even with that Norway was a relatively 'quiet' war zone right up until wars end.
There are a 'number' of wrecks in Norwegian lakes and a lot more on the barren mountain slopes, but most are lying in the fiords and coastal waters. Whilst lake aircraft are most desired, the cold, low saline sea water still offers great possibilities - the recent He 115 a great example.
Russia, especially the north has the potential for far more lake wrecks, but even here I would suggest that the numbers are dozens, not thousands.
One thing is for sure, there are still some 'gems' awaiting there turn

The Inspector · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:22 pm

Didn't the P-39 currently undergoing restoration in beautiful Buffalo N.Y. come out of a Russian lake and include the pretty much intact remains of the poor pilot as well as a couple intact tins of SPAM?

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:48 pm

The Inspector wrote:

Didn't the P-39 currently undergoing restoration in beautiful Buffalo N.Y. come out of a Russian lake and include the pretty much intact remains of the poor pilot as well as a couple intact tins of SPAM?

Indeed it did. IIRC the pilots bones were discovered at the bottom of the cockpit and he was eventually given a military funeral. I think the tins of SPAM were found in the gun bays.

Flying Pencil · **Joined:** Sun May 04, 2008 11:31 am **Posts:** 161

DaveM2 wrote:

'Thousands' is a wild exaggeration.

No it is not.

Their is documented proof of as least 2000 aircraft in the waters around and in Norway.

Yes, it does seem a large number, but that is what the records state.
Not all warbirds of note, but some.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:45 pm

Flying Pencil wrote:

DaveM2 wrote:

'Thousands' is a wild exaggeration.

No it is not.

Their is documented proof of as least 2000 aircraft in the waters around and in Norway.

Yes, it does seem a large number, but that is what the records state.
Not all warbirds of note, but some.

As I said- not in lakes, which is what we were initially talking about- read my post.

The vast majority are in the sea.

I should state my sources - the retired Director of the Norwegian Armed Forces Museum, Gardermoen and the current Curator of the Norwegian Aviation Museum, Bodo. They have the loss records of all aircraft documented as coming down over Norway during WWII. I am fortunate enough to have abbreviated copies of all surviving Luftwaffe loss docs (several hundred pages). I don't have to take my shoes and socks off to count how many are recorded as having come down on/in lakes.

If your friend or yourself have the documents detailing even a couple of these 'thousands' that are in Norwegian lakes- both of those national museums would be VERY interested to hear about it!

camshaw · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:02 am

steve Carmichael said prior to his passing that he had sonar mapping of over 125 fresh water belly landing aircraft gps locations and that the amount of fresh water intact wrecks was truly amazing up around norway!.....I wish I knew somebody who worked hand in hand with steve, as I have an avid collector willing to finance recoveries....great thread boys...

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:18 am

DaveM2 wrote:

CoastieJohn wrote:

Does this thing have a realistic chance of being restored?

Its not being restored, it is being conserved and will be displayed as found (assembled as far as possible).

Until the one in the Russian lake surfaces, this is all we have of a significant type.

a do 17 in a Russian lake?? do tell!! 1st time I've heard about this one!!

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:31 am

camshaw wrote:

steve Carmichael said prior to his passing that he had sonar mapping of over 125 fresh water belly landing aircraft gps locations and that the amount of fresh water intact wrecks was truly amazing up around norway!.....I wish I knew somebody who worked hand in hand with steve, as I have an avid collector willing to finance recoveries....great thread boys...

Hi Cam

Yes Steve had a lot of stories, some a bit dubious as per a number of threads on Flypast re the Windemere Sunderland and a Float Plane Spitfire. I had a backer lined up for two rare aircraft in a German lake, but that went south.
He did send a number of interesting sonar images /photos of a B-17 and Hurricane in UK lakes.
Very sad news about his passing, he certainly was passionate about his work and I always enjoyed our chats.

Send me a PM when you get a moment.

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:17 am

the spitfire on floats was only an experiment that if implemented would have been used in that region. the experiment if it succeeded the nords would have seen spits on floats 1st, in Norway. no spits on floats ever saw combat, even though it looked great & it's performance was not hampered much by the drag of the floats. infact it's speed was quite impressive!! sorry for straying off topic!!

can someone fill me in on the details of the do17 in the Russian lake?? 1st iv'e heard of it on this thread.

Flying Pencil · **Joined:** Sun May 04, 2008 11:31 am **Posts:** 161

CoastieJohn wrote:

Does this thing have a realistic chance of being restored?

No. Easier to build from scratch and use this as pattern. Salt water is highly corrosive to aluminum.

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Dornier DO17 at Cosford today

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