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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:55 am 
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Sorry about that. Here you go...

http://www.jrengines.com/

I have not dealt with them directly, but they came recommended by two old wrenches I've met. The Wisconsin Wing of the CAF recently had a pair of R-2800's rebuilt by J&R for a Harpoon.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:56 am 
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Aircraft manitenance is on the downturn! There just isn't any money in it if your working for someone. You'll get by but you won't get rich. I think they need to raise the standards for obtaining a Airframe and Powerplant certificate.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:02 am 
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Broken-Wrench wrote:
I think they need to raise the standards for obtaining a Airframe and Powerplant certificate.


How would you proposed to do this?


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Broken-Wrench wrote:
Aircraft manitenance is on the downturn! There just isn't any money in it if your working for someone. You'll get by but you won't get rich. I think they need to raise the standards for obtaining a Airframe and Powerplant certificate.


I agree with you,

As someone who has held his liscense for over 23 years it is good thing to raise the standards AND modernize the training requirements for it. But there is still one major obstacle to your idea. Now this is gonna "date me" but so what. When I was a kid the guys I hung out with were all into cars and fixing mechanical things.... Today's breed of kids are more into computers and video games and are afraid to get their hands dirty just like their fathers are. They don't mind shelling out the bucks to have their Explorer or SUV or other personal "toys" fixed...mainly because they can't do it themselves. Which brings me to the idea of WHO is gonna be the next generation of guys who CAN fix the historic and classic iron of yesterday ? Because the military isn't cranking the guys out like it used to let alone letting them go.....AND the amount of acredited A&P schools in this country is on a major decline based on interest level of the new class of kids coming along and the main lack of both respect and monetary payment that ANY aviation career outside of say Avionics is getting these days. One needs no further to look that what is happening at the major airlines to see why.

Couple that with the fact that the major airlines just don't want to pay folks that work for them and they would rather send the work to Central America and the Pacific for the CHEAP labor rates. And also, lets face the fact that General Aviation, for a mechanic, has never paid well. Corporate pays okay but has to to compete with the airlines for the most talented guys.

Any thoughts ??

Paul


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:08 pm 
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Forgotten Field,

In response to what you say about the logistics’ of setting up an available “pool” of spares…QEC’s etc…the whole concept of that would be predicated on the idea that you could actually get a group of owners together that would want to accomplish something that and do so co-operatively. And with the costs involved I think that would be a monumental undertaking. Let alone the idea that for the most part owners would rather spend their dollars on flying the aircraft (due to the fuel and oil costs alone, and let’s not forget insurances of some sort) than keeping a shelf load of available spares around. Then you have to take into account the liability issues behind the idea of that very “pool” of spares. Where would they be kept, who would administer them, parts compatibility and records etc… World War II was much different in that the Government and the military basically controlled product availability, both on a cost basis and availability basis. In today’s world, most warbirds are maintained within the parameters of availability of parts at hand…. either from those few specialty shops who cater to them or from “the guy I know who had a bunch in his barn”……. or, sadly, from wrecked aircraft whose parts are still viable. When you consider a full restoration, then it becomes a matter of finding a machine shop who can replicate the parts you need, AND find someone to certify them as within specs. Because the FAA, while a “toothless tiger” when it comes to the airlines, cares NOTHING about going after the owner/operator of a classic aircraft or the mechanic when it comes to doing something wrong. They land on them with BOTH FEET. And I’ll take one more step here; lets not forget the attorneys and potential litigation that could result if something were to go wrong. History is replete with examples of product liability lawsuits over many issues, aviation not withstanding.

As to the issue of the “volunteers”. Your point is WELL taken. I cannot tell you how many times I have been in a similar situation. I take maintenance as a personal thing and the pride from doing a GOOD and proper job, and to allow someone access to doing something, potentially improperly on my watch is unforgivable. Your question about “vetting” maintenance volunteers is well taken, but someone who knows his business should supervise all volunteers who work on the plane. A case in point, a friend of mine…an A&P who came out of WW II was working on a wing rebuild of a PBY. The volunteers in his instance didn’t think twice about running down to the local hardware store to pick up such items as nuts, bolts, and washers to replace items out of the wing assembly during the rework. Now, the best you can get at any hardware store is Grade 8 stuff, which is okay for cars and automotive items, but there is a reason why aircraft are done with MIL SPEC hardware. And the volunteers in question could NOT understand the difference between MIL SPEC and regular every day hardware. Grade 8 or worse is nothing more than what I refer to as “hardened peanut butter” when it comes to aircraft. Which is why I say that a person WITH knowledge of what is going on must be involved. If the aircraft in question is a large one, say a PBY or B-25, or TBM etc…then you had better get more than one person with aviation knowledge and background there to help supervise the work due to the complexity of the aircraft.

You ask the one basic question here in “How do you develop lasting leadership skills in a volunteer organization” . Again, this is a trust issue. And we all know how difficult the issue of TRUST is to build in the first place. And again, I’ll go back the idea of the volunteers; there is a hierarchy in volunteer groups. Those closest to the owner/pilots usually are the ones who get the trust issue resolved in their favor the quickest. I call it the “brown nose syndrome”. PLEASE do not think that I feel all volunteers are like this. A lot of folks just want to come out to do the work that needs to be done…. but many, as I said before are the kind who want to walk around all puffed up wearing Museum X or Association Y’s jumpsuit. But when it comes to getting down and oily, they are usually nowhere to be found, but that is and has been my experience. I cannot speak for all groups though and please forgive me if there was any insult in that remark, there was none intended.

Jase brings up some interesting points in his posting as well…check, inspect…. and check and inspect again……… You must remember that these aircraft were NEVER intended to live to see this day. They were very high performance machines built to do a job for which their useful life no longer exists. And they certainly are NOT toys. They must be given the respect, which is their due if they are to remain airworthy. Both from a maintenance standpoint as well as a pilot’s standpoint. These aren’t the cars you drive or the Cessna 150 you may fly on a more regular basis. These are high performance aircraft, which in their day could do amazing things. And must be regarded, maintained and flown with that respect in mind. Otherwise you invite disaster, which we have all seen this past year in the loss of both aircraft and precious lives of the pilots who flew them.

If you have ANY concerns about looking at something………by ALL means do so. If you have to service the fluids on a normal basis, then take the “opportunity” to look around. See if hoses, clamps, seals, and wire bundles are secure. I know access is usually limited by the fluid access panel…but give it a shot. It just MAY save you bigger trouble down the line. If you (the mechanic or volunteer) do a walk around before the pilot does his…TALK about it together. Voice your concerns TOGETHER…that will build trust.

Eric, you hit the nail solidly on the head…Inspect, Inspect, Inspect. OPPORTUNITY is the key. If you have it take it. Better to deal with an issue on the ground before the pilot has to worry about it while airborne. He has enough on his mind while flying. But I will disagree with you on one point. That the pilot BE one of the mechanics. In my opinion, that is akin to having an owner say “Yep..I know my tires look bad…but I don’t want to replace them just yet…I’m only gonna fly it one or two times this year”. Personally, I’m okay with the pilot helping…but not being the one with the responsibility. Someone has to sign the logbook and having seen “helper pilots” before….they are more concerned with getting airborne quickly than they are with safety. Case in point, I was doing a preflight on couple of fighters prior to them going up for display….one of the pilots was barking orders at me to hurry up and get his plane done and bring him a “bucket of oil”. I told him, rather pointedly, that I will finish the preflight and he could relax because it was my responsibility, as told to me by the chief mechanic, to do the preflight’s and that I was the one that was going to be held responsible if he did an quantity check, topped off the fluid, and then forgot the cap on the tank just because he was in a hurry to get airborne, I didn’t want his engine to seize while he was up in the air. Sad story but very true. He came back to me after he flew the display to apologize for his actions and thanked me keeping him aware of the situation. Point is, he was in a hurry…. and I was more concerned for his life and the aircraft’s safe return to the ground so it could fly another day for the pilot’s and crowd’s enjoyment. That is why I don’t mind a helper pilot…it is just I would rather accept the responsibility myself and keep the two separate. I World War II…the crew chief’s always said that the planes were “on loan” to the pilots, because they were theirs. On the ground this is true…in the air…they are the pilots. But the two must work together…and EARN the respect and trust of one another to make it work. If not…. you may as well restore the aircraft to static condition and let it gather dust in a museum. Personally, I want to see them fly…as we all do.

I hope this topic continues…and I do apologize for my long editorial here, it isn’t meant to incite folks…it is meant to raise awareness. Maybe it can help build trust and respect as well. At any rate….it could be of some use to keep folks who work and fly these marvelous aircraft for our enjoyment around for a long, long, time.

Any Thoughts??

Respectfully,

Paul


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:14 pm 
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Aircraft Mech Paul wrote:
When I was a kid the guys I hung out with were all into cars and fixing mechanical things.... Today's breed of kids are more into computers and video games and are afraid to get their hands dirty just like their fathers are. They don't mind shelling out the bucks to have their Explorer or SUV or other personal "toys" fixed...mainly because they can't do it themselves.


A lot of today’s kids are mechanically inclined! Have you heard the mufflers on some of those little import cars? Those spinning hubcaps are snappy, too. One time a saw a roll cage that was constructed out of PVC pipe.

Seriously though, compare what you see under the hood of a modern car with something from 30 years ago. Who wants to mess with that?

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 Post subject: Re: Good response!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:38 pm 
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Forgotten Field wrote:
How do you develop lasting leadership skills in a volunteer organization?


The skills of the volunteers need to be assessed carefully. I’ve noticed that less experienced volunteers have the most energy, so you really need to keep an eye on what they’re doing.

If you just give them menial tasks to do all the time, you’ll lose them eventually. A tough balancing act. That’s why the same core of people end up doing all the work.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:49 pm 
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As far as what to do with eager volunteers: Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but in the working world it's called "mentoring"... a pairing up of the unqualified volunteer with the willing & patient master.

It's how I learned to buck and rivet. If I was holding the bar and toenailed it, I drilled it out. If I was holding the gun and left a smiley in the rivet, I drilled it out. Definitely an effective way to learn those THREE skills!

Which reminds me: I really need to thank that "patient master" once more after all these years.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:21 pm 
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Paul:

If you want an argument, you are gonna have to pick a different topic!! All joking aside, I totally agree with pretty much everything you posted.

And Dan, "mentoring" is how I got my start in this hobby/addiction, and I believe that it's the ONLY way to train people. We do it for pilots, we just call it "flight training".

I think we all agree that the institutional knowledge of "the fine art of Warbird Wrenching" is being lost. While in many ways the old radials are simpler to work on than today's planes, the old stuff has its fair share of killer quirks. Example: How many freshly minted A&P's do ya think know how to time an R1340 mag? And of those, how many know to check the biscuit thickness?

GREAT TOPIC, I hope to see more folks chime in.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:52 pm 
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Aircraft Mech Paul wrote:
Eric, you hit the nail solidly on the head…Inspect, Inspect, Inspect. OPPORTUNITY is the key. If you have it take it. Better to deal with an issue on the ground before the pilot has to worry about it while airborne. He has enough on his mind while flying. But I will disagree with you on one point. That the pilot BE one of the mechanics.


Well, I am a pilot and I also work on the planes I fly. I enjoy both the maintenance and the flying. When I suggested the pilot also be a mechanic, I said that because that is what I do. Obviously some pilots are not made to be a mechanic. But I feel a pilot who also is one of the mechanics on the plane, will have a better understanding of how that specific plane works and it will make him a better pilot.

Eric

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skymstr02 wrote:
Broken-Wrench wrote:
I think they need to raise the standards for obtaining a Airframe and Powerplant certificate.


How would you proposed to do this?


They give those things away now. Some that came out of A&P school couldn't tell me rivit sizes or grips or pass a simple sheetmetal project. What do you do with someone like that? To boot they don't have any tools and they want to borrow everything! I only spend time helping someone who tries to help themselfs. I do like the EAA guys though. Good bunch of guys. When I started as a mechanic the old guys would only show you once how to do something once and if you didn't get it you would be the parts cleaner, floor sweeper, ect.


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 Post subject: Professional Teaching
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:30 am 
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Does anybody remember the 5 day classes at Kissimmee on warbird restoration? I know they are gone, and I know they are not easy to set up, but is there anybody out there offering a similar opportunity?

As for mentoring- you have to be patient. Especially with students like me. My mechanical learning curve is variable, and generally good. But there are things that will take me 20-40 times or more of repetition, re-explanation, and additional training to do.

The Captain Ron school of thought applies here:

"Oh, no swab. First you get a job. If you do that right, you get a better job. And you keep working up. Learned that in Rehab."

You have to give untrained enthusiasts jobs they can do, learn from, get a sense of their own abilities (very important), and also give them something to work towards. And everybody is not a natural "trainer." It is another of those leadership skills which you have to develop and which usually takes a backseat to hangar flying, warstories, actual flying, and maintenance. Sometimes, you have to take a deep breath, stand back from the whole process, and see who is really supporting the organization. I would say that if you haven't seen a new interested face within a year, you need to go recruiting.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:23 pm 
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Eureka181 wrote:
Aircraft Mech Paul wrote:
Eric, you hit the nail solidly on the head…Inspect, Inspect, Inspect. OPPORTUNITY is the key. If you have it take it. Better to deal with an issue on the ground before the pilot has to worry about it while airborne. He has enough on his mind while flying. But I will disagree with you on one point. That the pilot BE one of the mechanics.


Well, I am a pilot and I also work on the planes I fly. I enjoy both the maintenance and the flying. When I suggested the pilot also be a mechanic, I said that because that is what I do. Obviously some pilots are not made to be a mechanic. But I feel a pilot who also is one of the mechanics on the plane, will have a better understanding of how that specific plane works and it will make him a better pilot.

Eric


Eric,

A great post. And I agree with you on principle that the pilots SHOULD have some knowledge of the aircraft they are flying. especially from a systems and basic knowledge concept. BUT...here is where I would diverge from you. A HYPOTHETICAL example.

Lets say that you and I are working on an annual, just the two of us. I'm the one with the A&P...you are the pilot/owner. We've been friends a long time. And the trust we have spoken of here is solidly based. Now, we've found ourselves in the middle of a rather large project that required a considerable amount of disassembly. The primary repair has been made and adressed, and we are back into re-assembly. Now for one reason or another, due to time constraints or personal issues, we both cannot be present at the same time to re-assemble the item in question. We both get the job done...but are we BOTH sure of the completeness of the job ? Did all the cotter pins get installed (correctly) ? Was all of the safety wiring done properly ? Were all of the bolts that needed torqueing done correctly?

Now, the airplane is complete, and you want to fly it. Great.... ! The logbooks are signed off and the FAA is all warm and fuzzy because it (the paprework) says so. You're the pilot...you're the owner....now you wanna go play in the clouds. Now the unthinkable happens. You're flying along and all of a sudden something happens related to that repair/rework we did together. Uh oh...... We both know that gravity never looses. The airplane comes down...and you walk away, banged up but alive. The plane is hurt, but repairable. Now the finger pointing comes.... The NTSB and the FAA must become involved because of the "inncident" and they determine that something in the repair we both did went wrong... It wasn't the repair that failed it was something missed in the re-assembly stage. Who's fault is it ?? What happens now...and I say this from actually knowing guys who did exactly what I described in the HYPOTHETICAL example. Is that lawyers becomes involved...the FAA lands on me because I have the A&P and signed the logbook and we loose the friendship...the trust and anything else we had.

My point in all of this is simple....I would rather be the guy responsible for the whole item versus not knowing what someone else did behind me and I missed...example...the bolt torquing. What do I tell the FAA when they tell me that the bolts failed because they were not torqued or incorrectly torqued and I signed for something that you (the pilot) said got done. I saw that they were tight....but the pilot said he torqued them. The FAA only wants to know one thing.....WHO SIGNED FOR IT, and that is the guy they are gonna go after...as well as the lawyers and whoever else becomes involved.

I guess my passion for these old aircraft sometimes gets my blood running.......but when it comes to the FAA, there is only one responsible party. And that is the guy who signed the logbook.

Do ya see where I am coming from as I have attempted to make my point ?

To me, as an A&P lisence holder for the time I have had, there is no running from the responsability I have. I accept it and know in my heart that I have done it and done it right. Above all else I hold the lives of the people who ride in the aircraft, be they jetliners, to cargo birds, to personal pleasure aircraft to the Historic Warbirds, as sacred. I couldn't live with myself knowing I violated a promise I made to God Almighty that something I did or by ommission failed to do caused injury to another one of God's souls. I may not be the best person in the world and I may not have livced all of my life the way God or others have seen me over the years, but I WILL NOT break that promise.

Again, all this was HYPOTHETICAL in the example I illustrated. And I hope you understand where I am coming from here.

Respectfully,

Paul


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:35 pm 
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Paul you hit the rivet on the head! Good post! And response to another post. You don't practice riviting on a expensive airplanes. Thats why god made C-150s. Still expensive but not that expensive! I knew a guy that shot a 3/32 rivet drilled it out and installed a 1/4 and blew the ED on the structure. A simple repair ended up being a major deal.


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Broken-Wrench wrote:
skymstr02 wrote:
Broken-Wrench wrote:
I think they need to raise the standards for obtaining a Airframe and Powerplant certificate.


How would you proposed to do this?


They give those things away now. Some that came out of A&P school couldn't tell me rivit sizes or grips or pass a simple sheetmetal project. What do you do with someone like that? To boot they don't have any tools and they want to borrow everything! I only spend time helping someone who tries to help themselfs. I do like the EAA guys though. Good bunch of guys. When I started as a mechanic the old guys would only show you once how to do something once and if you didn't get it you would be the parts cleaner, floor sweeper, ect.


EXACTLY on point,

A&P tickets are treated as confetti these days...alot of guys went out and "bought" theirs...and these are the ones that scare the daylights out of me. I went to school for 2 years to learn that I wasn't near as smart as I thought I was. And in the ensuing 23 years of my life I learned, from the "old pharts" (I say that with great affection and respect for them) to do the things that have brought me this far in my career. But, as with all thing and people....getting the more senior indivduals to even recognise you is a feat in itself. I equate the whole matter like this.

Unions....(and this is NOT meant to spark its own debate), used to actually MEAN the words they used when it came to their memebership. Words like Apprentice, Journeyman, Craftsman and finally MASTER Craftsman. These words still hold meaning.... Look, as with anything, you must learn to crawl before you can walk. And volunteers or newly minted A&P's still must learn to crawl before they can walk. Even with my background which is primarily sheetmetal and systems, I still wouldn't want to attempt changing a magneto and timing it correctly on a radial engine without someone THERE who has done it before.... Conversley, if I were into a sheetmetal repair, I wouldn't want to have someone so green to work with as to not be able to use a drill properly either. And believe me...shooting rivets is an aquired "instinct" if you will. Why is that alot of the guys you may know don't use much hearing protection while shooting rivets ? Myself included. Because they always listen for THAT sound that tells them it was shot right.

If a volunteer really has the desire to learn what is being done...fantastic. But if, and folks can tell, he is just there for a more social thing or hoping for a ride, then yes...guess what...you get to sweep the floors and clean up the hangar and wipe down the plane.

Any thoughts ??

Paul


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