B-29 kee bird questions

maxum96 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:15 pm

quemerford wrote:

Matt Gunsch wrote:

I love all these monday morning quarterbacks who were not there, or have no idea what was going on, woulda, shoulda coulda all you want, you were not there, you did not make the call.

Kee Bird burned because of a accident in that the APU operator did not shut it off like he was supposed to, Rich died because he refused medical treatment until it was too late, who's fault is that ? Rick did not know how bad he was hurt and continued to work for several days.

If Kee Bird had flown out everyone would be saying it was the greatest recovery in warbird history, but because it didn't everyone thinks they were fools for trying.
I was not there, but I know what happened from someone who was close to those that were.

Matt - 100% agree. Too many experts after the fact out there!

+1

phil65 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:31 pm

"The irony is that the B-29 wouldn't have left Thule once it got there, at least not for a very long time at the best. I know a now-retired USAF officer who was at the base HQ at the time and he swears the plane was going to be grounded the moment it rolled up to their hangars once it got there and that there was a plan (obviously not shared with the public) in place to assure it never left Greenland."

You could always hire the guys from Airplane Repo to get it out....

Actually, I think the best way to have gotten it out was to convince the military to go airlift it out and use it as a exercise at retrieving a downed aircraft.

Monday Quarterback,
Phil

p51 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:41 pm

cooper9411 wrote:

How could it not leave Greenland if Larkin's/ Greenamyer had all permits and paperwork?

Just telling ya what I was told.
He was very specific that they could (and would) have grounded the plane if it'd gotten there. He also told me that several people there breathed a sigh of relief that it never got to Thule because they just didn't want to deal with the whole thing at all.
Again, just telling ya what I was told.

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1131

Dan Jones wrote:

Not knowing the dimensions off the top of my head, I'm not sure that a B-29 fuselage would even fit in the back of a Herc. I think the diameter would be too large. Flying it out on it's own steam was probably the only realistic way to get it out of there without spending literally millions.

Dan, before I retired from loadmastering I worked on some certification letters and load plans to get some warbirds to Hawaii for the big naval aviation anniversary. The money disappeared and that whole thing never really came to anything. Out of morbid curiosity I did load plan to find out if I could get a B-29 in a C-17 or C-130. It would have taken three C-17 trips or eight C-130 trips. That was in a perfect world with pallets, dunnage, K-loaders and all that stuff. Just as you were wondering, the B-29 fuselage wouldn't fit height wise. It could have been made to fit but not without significant disassembly. You could get it all in two C-5 trips though.

So, could it have been carried out in a C-130? Yes, with great difficulty and disassembly, technically speaking. But not practically or realistically speaking.

My personal opinion, having made a living in the airlift world and having a fair amount of experience with B-29s is this: The idea that the airplane could have made it out anyway except under its own power is pretty ridicules when you consider the sheer logistics required to do it piece by piece. Could it have been done? Yes I believe so. But at cost that was far beyond any dollar value that the airplane would have ever been worth, regardless of how perfect the restoration was.

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1131

DoraNineFan wrote:

Brad wrote:

Matt Gunsch wrote:

Kee Bird burned because of a accident in that the APU operator did not shut it off like he was supposed to.

The APU was the power source for the hydraulic pump that runs the brakes. From the very first B-29 until "FIFI" was modified with extra batteries, it was standard operating procedure to have the APU running and on line from engine start until after takeoff and again from before landing until the chocks were in place on the ground. It had to be running. There was no other option because the plane was built that way. The gas can that was being used to feed the APU came loose and hit the APU exhaust. That is why the fire started.

That, and the decision to jerry-rig a clumsy bypass for the faulty fuel pump on the APU instead of making arrangements to replace it.

That's what I said in the last two sentences.

Pogo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:28 pm

Brad, your posts are a large part of why I volunteer to pay money to this site. Thank you, sir. Thank you also to Jeremy S for his posting.

CoastieJohn · **Joined:** Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 pm **Posts:** 1380

Given the liberty of Monday morning QB-ing.......

From the lake were the Kee Bird is at, disassemble the large pieces in manageable sizes and sling load via a heavy lift helo approx 13 miles to the ice cap (IAW Google Earth!). Waiting there, will be a convoy of snow tractors and sleds similar to what was used to establish the ice cap station back in the day 125-something miles inland from Thule. Sling load the disassembled Kee Bird pieces onto the sleds and the convoy will travel approx 320 miles back to Thule over the ice cap trail they used to get to the Kee Bird staging LZ. The helo used will fly approx 300 miles one way from Thule to the LZ. The convoy will support the helo with fuel and parts. When done slinging, the helo will return to Thule. Figure a 3-4 day trip back to Thule for the convoy. If money was there, have the 109th fly some of the Kee Bird pieces back to Thule to lighten the load for the convoy. It wouldn't be cheap, but this is definitely doable. The ice cap station construction proved heavy pieces can be transported over the ice cap long distances.

quemerford · **Joined:** Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:19 pm **Posts:** 1595

CoastieJohn wrote:

Given the liberty of Monday morning QB-ing.......

From the lake were the Kee Bird is at, disassemble the large pieces in manageable sizes and sling load via a heavy lift helo approx 13 miles to the ice cap (IAW Google Earth!). Waiting there, will be a convoy of snow tractors and sleds similar to what was used to establish the ice cap station back in the day 125-something miles inland from Thule. Sling load the disassembled Kee Bird pieces onto the sleds and the convoy will travel approx 320 miles back to Thule over the ice cap trail they used to get to the Kee Bird staging LZ. The helo used will fly approx 300 miles one way from Thule to the LZ. The convoy will support the helo with fuel and parts. When done slinging, the helo will return to Thule. Figure a 3-4 day trip back to Thule for the convoy. If money was there, have the 109th fly some of the Kee Bird pieces back to Thule to lighten the load for the convoy. It wouldn't be cheap, but this is definitely doable. The ice cap station construction proved heavy pieces can be transported over the ice cap long distances.

But is there anything left worth retrieving now? I assume the engines were recovered at least?

whistlingdeath77 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:51 am

Would using a c-47 on skiis be a safer option as a second plane to haul items out of there?

Digger · **Posted:** Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:22 am

Taken within the last 6 months I believe. Clearly shows what's left at the site.

http://vimeo.com/106871067

or google Kee Bird video within 2012 to 2014

Ken · **Posted:** Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:53 am

Amazingly good video which clearly ends the debate on the location of the engines & props. What a great example of the usefulness of modern technology & the internet - one minute I'm sipping coffee at my house, the next, I'm walking along the the present-day wreckage of the Kee Bird. Wow.

Each time this recovery effort comes up the old stereotypical police line, "Move along, nothing to see here" comes to mind. It's as if some find it easier to hash over the knowns of the past rather than expend the energy to confront the unknowns of the future.

Ken

peter · **Posted:** Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:36 am

I am sure some parts would be salvageable like the engines props ailerons wings etc etc?

CoastieJohn · **Joined:** Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 pm **Posts:** 1380

whistlingdeathcorsairs wrote:

Would using a c-47 on skiis be a safer option as a second plane to haul items out of there?

I was thinking what would be economical and safest. If the goal is to get the parts to Thule for further logistical movement, that's a 300+ mile flt. How many C-47 flts would it take to haul the big pieces and would they even fit? Plus what would one want to salvage? The sled and tractor idea would be slow going but it would be effective and safe for the crew. It would allow you to move a lot of pieces without space/loading restrictions.

That Air Greenland helo in the vid came from somewhere not too far away. If there is an actual landing strip at that nearby village (vs just a helo pad) maybe that could be utilized in the effort? Either way...it's doable. Edit added: I looked at Google earth and see the village of Qaanaaq is about 225 miles away and they have a runway. There is a helo port in Siorapaluk but that would be of limited use unless one wants to do a complete helo recovery, then load to a barge. Just may as well go to Qaanaaq and use the runway.

Would be curious what the crew was doing there....just filming for grins or a planned recovery?

Question answered: http://www.avannaa.com/

p51 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:32 am

Digger wrote:

Taken within the last 6 months I believe. Clearly shows what's left at the site.

http://vimeo.com/106871067

God, that's painful to watch.
I'll never understand why they left newly rebuilt engines on the airframe.

Cherrybomber13 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:36 am

That new video breaks the heart. This is such an emotionally charged story.

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