Collings Foundation adds TP-40N to WOF tour!

[Randy Haskin]

In the 1960's, three of the Cavalier conversions also featured the TEMCO "TF" extended cockpit/canopy (I've read conflicting reports about whether or not those three had previously been part of the 15 original TEMCO TF's)

There were actually eight Cavalier TF-51s, with two of them being former TEMCO TF-51s.

The original TEMCOs that were modified/converted:
44-84658 (which became AURI F360)
44-84655 (which most likely became 67-14866/FAB 521, and is now N551CF)

The modifieds/new-builds:
44-64392 (which became FAS 400)
44-73260 (which became AURI F361)
44-84745 (which is now Crazy Horse)
67-22582 (FAB 522)
69-6599 (FAD 1923 #2)
72-1536 (AURI F 366)

[JohnB]

Don't throw rocks at me or call the psych ward...
But with that extended greenhouse, the 2-seat P-40 reminds me of the Fairey Firefly.

[eallen]

John Terrell or anyone else know if there is any artwork out there related to the TP-40? Curtiss logo or cartoon? The artwork on the side of the TP-39 got me thinking about this. I have tried the basic Google search but came up dry. Thanks in advance!

[Chris Brame]

Don't throw rocks at me or call the psych ward...
But with that extended greenhouse, the 2-seat P-40 reminds me of the Fairey Firefly.

Make it a rubber room for two - the TP-39 reminds me of the Fairey Gannet.

[JohnTerrell]

Thank you Randy for your post, I really appreciate it! So there were two definite TEMCO TF-51D's that were processed through Cavalier. I'm familiar with the bunch of photos of N851D (#1) 44-84658 (today "Friendly Ghost") in the early 60's, prior to it going to Indonesia - that airframe never received the extended tail fin cap.

Now with 44-84745 N851D #2 (today "Crazy Horse"), it received the TEMCO-style TF extended cockpit modifications by Cavalier in the late 60's, if I understand correctly - I know by the early 70's it had the extended cockpit and tail fin cap.

It's interesting if in-fact 44-84655 became Cavalier 67-14866, as there are now two TF-51D's flying today with both of those identities. The Friedkin TF-51D N20TF has had the Cavalier 67-14866 identity (which was FAB 521 from 1968 onward) very clearly all the way back to when it was brought back out of Bolivia in the 1970's, while the Collings TF-51D N551CF claims the 44-84655 identity (which was FAB 510 up until 1967), but as I recall, that aircraft was sort of brought out of the blue only several years back as a mostly new-build project based on parts and paperwork. Curtis Fowles' website states that the hulk of 44-84655, which had been written off, was used by Cavalier as a template in their TEMCO-type extended cockpit modifications.

One on your list, 44-73260, I have never seen any indication of having had the extended cockpit.

[Randy Haskin]

I'm familiar with the bunch of photos of N851D (#1) 44-84658 (today "Friendly Ghost") in the early 60's, prior to it going to Indonesia - that airframe never received the extended tail fin cap.

Okay, here's where things start getting fun.

N851D #1/44-84658 (e.g. the "real" TEMCO TF that Cavalier was using as their in-house trainer) was used to create one of the two Peace Pony I TF-51s for Indonesia (AURI F 160 and F 361) out of convenience in 1971. The two TFs are identifiable (and distinguishable) in that one was painted up in SEA camouflage and the other was delivered in a plain white scheme. Interestingly, and for reasons which I still do not understand (but have been testified to by multiple sources/Cavalier employees), when it was built up for Indonesia it had a "sort of" ID swap with 44-73260 temporarily before leaving to Indonesia in 1971. So, there are photos of the N851D airframe on the ramp in Sarasota, wearing southeast asia camouflage, and with "N451D" painted on the side. None the less, N851D went to Indonesia and did not come back -- it crashed in Indonesia in July 1975 and was destroyed.

"Friendly Ghost", in my opinion based on seeing the evidence, is actually the former N451D/44-73260. This stems from seeing photos of the fuselage in a shipping crate during recovery from Indonesia by Steven Johnson, and the fuselage (and interior pieces, etc) are painted white. As said previously, 84658 was painted camo and 73260 was painted white, and the third Indonesian Cavalier TF-51 (72-1536) was destroyed in Indonesia, crashing in Feb 1979. A simple process of elimination narrows the ID down to one possible airframe. Unfortunately, Johnson, MacGuire, Letcher, etc, were not aware that N451D had been converted into a TF-51 prior to export to Indonesia, and with the "assistance" of some shoddy "research" from the USAF attache to Indonesia, they earnestly believed the airframe to be N851D, and reregistered it with the FAA as such.

Now with 44-84745 N851D #2 (today "Crazy Horse"), it received the TEMCO-style TF extended cockpit modifications by Cavalier in the late 60's, if I understand correctly - I know by the early 70's it had the extended cockpit and tail fin cap.

Long story here, too, but the airplane was just parts in a warehouse until after Cavalier and Field Services shut down business. The Lindsay family wanted to build it up as the "last and best" Cavalier TF-51 in the '81/'82 timeframe, so they picked out the best parts from the leftover ex-company stock. Gordon Plaskett eventually finished the build.

It's interesting if in-fact 44-84655 became Cavalier 67-14866, as there are now two TF-51D's flying today with both of those identities. The Friedkin TF-51D N20TF has had the Cavalier 67-14866 identity (which was FAB 521 from 1968 onward) very clearly all the way back to when it was brought back out of Bolivia in the 1970's, while the Collings TF-51D N551CF claims the 44-84655 identity (which was FAB 510 up until 1967), but as I recall, that aircraft was sort of brought out of the blue only several years back as a mostly new-build project based on parts and paperwork. Curtis Fowles' website states that the hulk of 44-84655, which had been written off, was used by Cavalier as a template in their TEMCO-type extended cockpit modifications.

The story here is that I have a photo of the fuselage of 44-84655 getting paint-stripped and washed on the first day of work on the Peace Condor (Bolivian AF) airplanes. There is no direct link that I have currently that shows which of the two Bolivian TF-51s (67-14866 and 67-22582) this fuselage was used to create. It would follow, though, that as Cavalier was creating their first-ever TF-51s, they would use an actual TEMCO airframe to start with, as a second airframe could (and was) patterned off the TEMCO design. 67-14866 was built in December 1967 and 67-22582 was constructed in 1968...so it is an educated guess that the TEMCO fuselage was used to create 67-14866, since that was the first airplane out the doors (and the handwritten caption on the photo obtained from Cavalier goes out of its way to note that it was the first day of work on the Peace Condor aircraft). I agree that N20TF is this airframe, because there's been a pretty solid tie-up between the Cavalier identity and N20TF since returning from South America.

With respect to N551CF, their claim to provenance with 44-84655 is some cowlings and parts that are verifiably from 84655, which were obtained from Gordon Plaskett (who inherited them from the former Cavalier stock). <shrug> That's probably as good of evidence of provenance of any Mustang restoration these days! I was playing a little fast and loose when I made the tie-up with 14866 in the previous post, because in all reality the "provenance" parts on Tolouse Nuts were probably never actually part of 14866.

It is definitely possible that the 44-84655 TEMCO airframe was used to build 67-22582/FAB 522, which crashed in Bolivia in 1970...which would mean that N20TF isn't a former TEMCO, and N551CF...still has the same claim to provenance based on their ex-Plaskett bolt-on parts.

One on your list, 44-73260, I have never seen any indication of having had the extended cockpit.

As said earlier, it was converted for export in 1971 to Indonesia. I have some photos of it in my research materials at home, but I am out on the road for business and don't have access to them to share right now.

[JohnTerrell]

Thank you Randy for so generously providing that information! I just love this sort of stuff - the detective work and connecting the dots. I'm definitely saving your information/research for future reference.

[airnutz]

Thanks for the posts guys..love it! Randy, do you have an ETA on your Cavalier book?

[Randy Haskin]

Thanks for the posts guys..love it! Randy, do you have an ETA on your Cavalier book?

I promise it is going to get published...just don't know when. I wish I had a better answer, because it is definitely overdue to be completed.

[Randy Haskin]

Thank you Randy for so generously providing that information! I just love this sort of stuff - the detective work and connecting the dots. I'm definitely saving your information/research for future reference.

Always happy to share with fellow enthusiasts! Hopefully all of it will end up in a book on the subject, but as said, that is still an objective with an open end.

I'm always interested in additional information on any of the aircraft, especially if it is something contrary to anything I've posted. There's a lot of misinformation I've had to weed through and sort out, but I'm certain there's more out there to be discovered. I'm prepared for a landslide of "new" information once the book gets published, and people start reading what's in there (and perhaps start finding photos in their collections and such), so I know a rewrite or 2nd edition will eventually be in the cards, too!

[Joe Scheil]

A couple points, first Randy Haskin has compiled the best knowledge of Cavalier stuff anywhere and he is the foremost guy I know on a lot of the stuff.

That said, as a hangar rat and volunteer causing problems I was in place at several times when my own Mustang forensic knowledge could be put to use. The first time was with the restoration of N20TF after her Arizona incident. The plane was stripped and completely repainted before the restoration. Cavalier aircraft were all reduced to components, and were not “one aircraft”. They were all built up from parts. The vertical tail which was stripped of Bolivian and later civilian paint displayed the serial of a Mustang that had been burned by Castro supporters in Ft Lauderdale I think. Forget the number but perhaps N5417V? In any case the fuselage was not identifiable as 655’ and believe me I was ALWAYS looking for that plane. For some reason that plane was my favorite to build models of.

Based on the months looking her over during restoration at Fighters, it did not appear to me that N20TF was ever Toulouse Nuts, and neither was the other one just based on the time frame At the time is was a great disappointment to me.

Years later, when we found the original cowling and other parts in with stuff purchased by the Foundation we worked very diligently to figure out how they got there. From what we determined, the fuselage of 655 was not used in a re serialed Bolivian Mustang, and was broken for parts. We talked with everyone on this subject, and felt she had been dismantled for patterns. After 655 went to Cavalier at least 4 TF Mustang copies were made. 655 could not have been all of them. To complete the story, I was thrilled to fly in 655 after Oshkosh with that original painted cowling on the plane...

A dream come true for me...

[Randy Haskin]

Based on the months looking her over during restoration at Fighters, it did not appear to me that N20TF was ever Toulouse Nuts, and neither was the other one just based on the time frame At the time is was a great disappointment to me.

Years later, when we found the original cowling and other parts in with stuff purchased by the Foundation we worked very diligently to figure out how they got there. From what we determined, the fuselage of 655 was not used in a re serialed Bolivian Mustang, and was broken for parts. We talked with everyone on this subject, and felt she had been dismantled for patterns. After 655 went to Cavalier at least 4 TF Mustang copies were made. 655 could not have been all of them. To complete the story, I was thrilled to fly in 655 after Oshkosh with that original painted cowling on the plane...

Joe, good, I'm glad you got in the discussion here. I don't think you and I are as far off here as it may appear, and for those reading, Joe and I spoke several times during the restoration of N551CF about the provenance of the Tolouse Nuts airframe/parts and my understanding of the timeline of the serial number history.

For those also who aren't well versed, as Joe mentions the Cavalier airplanes were all assembled from parts, and they were done so with no deference whatsoever to former wartime IDs. They considered the parts just parts, and they considered the aircraft that were assembled "new" (as did the FAA and USAF, from a legal perspective). There was no attempt to track or link new re-serialed aircraft with legacy wartime IDs, and the US civilian Cavaliers were only assigned wartime IDs because the type certificate with the FAA required them to have one. On those aircraft, the wartime IDs were basically picked off a list of identities owned by TFA/Cavalier, and they had no relation to the parts that were used to create the airplane. The generally agreed-upon method used in tracking/assigning the IDs on these airframes (and agreed well before my involvement, by Mustang historians like Malcom Gougon, Dick Phillips, John Dienst, etc) was that the fuselage center section (where the dataplate lived) was "the airplane", and the other parts were just parts. So, if you see NAA/wartime serial numbers attached to Cavalier airplanes (and especially Cavalier airplanes that had been re-serialed in the 60s and 70s), it is because evidence was able to identify the former ID of the fuselage center section used in the rebuild.

Note that this is the "historian's view", and not the "legal view" with respect to the true ID and title of any particular airframe. Again, from a legal perspective, the Cavalier airplanes were "new" and the re-serialed airplanes did not carry forward any wartime identities.

That being said....

I suppose I was ineloquent with describing the timeline, I didn't intend to draw any line between N20TF and N551CF.

There obviously is a direct line between 67-14866 and N20TF...and at the same time, the link between the known former 44-84655 parts and N551CF. These are both true at the same time. Even if the fuselage of 84655 were used as the core of 67-14866, both of these things can be true simultaneously, for the exact reasons you mention with respect to how the Cav airplanes were built. They are sort of siblings with a common parent in 44-84655.

Cav received the 84655 fuselage from the Bolivian AF as just parts, so from a paperwork perspective Cavalier never reacquired the ownership rights to the wartime ID as an airframe. Technically the 85655 ID "died" in Bolivia, and with the transfer of the parts over the years, re-emerged so far as the FAA is legally concerned as N551CF. As I said, this is just as solid provenance (and in many cases even *better* provenance) than many of the Mustang restorations out there -- I'm not in any way disparaging N551CF or challenging its identity as 84655...but all of us in the warbird world understand how this works and has worked in the past.

Again, my data and theory on that was based on a series of three (maybe four?) photos I got from the Lindsay family showing that first day of production of the Peace Condor TFs. The pics show one clearly TEMCO fuselage and one standard fighter fuselage being paint stripped and cleaned out on a concrete pad in Sarasota. In talking with the few people I know who worked on the Bolivian airplanes in SRQ (two people, plus Bob Lindsay), they confirmed that the TEMCO design was 100% their starting point for what became the Cavalier TF design, but also stated that the TEMCO fuselage they had was used in creating the FAB airplanes.

It has been since prior to the build of N551CF that I was knee-deep in research for the Cavalier stuff, and if you have data that has come out subsequently about the pattern use and "broke down for parts" path, I'm definitely interested in knowing more. I'm always willing to correct the record if there's more/better evidence!

Sorting out these conflicts is the best part of the process, IMHO.

[Lon Moer]

Sure would be great to be have all this information in a ....BOOK!

[Ken]

Can the mods break out the Mustang stuff into its own thread? Or change the title? Interested readers might skip this thread if they're not into TP-40s and that'd be a shame.

Ken

[T J Johansen]

Agree with Ken. The Mustang info really ought to have its own thread.

T J