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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 3:28 pm 
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If they'd pulled it off they'd be seen as rebellious heros...
Since the didn't, they're seen as reckless cowboys.

There's a very fine line between the two.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 6:33 pm 
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JohnB wrote:
If they'd pulled it off they'd be seen as rebellious heros...
Since the didn't, they're seen as reckless cowboys.

There's a very fine line between the two.


This is where I land on it as well. The same attitudes that got them so close to pulling it off were the same ones that ultimately led to the destruction of Kee Bird. If one is going to glorify those attitudes, one must also accept what happens when those same attitudes have negative consequences. You can't have it both ways.

I've spent a lot of time outdoors in adverse weather conditions in my life - and not anywhere close to the extent that the Kee Bird recovery crew did. It's hard to properly state how experiencing those conditions can wear on you and simultaneously impart a sense of urgency and reminder of the fragility of your own existence. If you haven't experienced anything like that, it's difficult and maybe impossible to understand what that can do to a person's psyche. I believe that was likely as much a factor in the fate of Kee Bird as anything else.

The impression I got from Hunting Warbirds by Carl Hoffman, which details a lot of the recovery effort, is that the recovery crew did not have a good relationship with or the respect of the base commander at Thule. As I recall, there were even disputes about storing the Huey and Caribou that were used in the recovery efforts. I have a hard time imagining Kee Bird being allowed to fly out of Greenland even if they had made it to Thule in one piece - which was no guarantee.

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback, something I am absolutely guilty of with respect to other endeavors in the warbird community. Ultimately, I have a lot of respect for what the Kee Bird group came so close to accomplishing. It also didn't have to end that way and it's hard to reconcile the result when just a little more thorough examination and care could have prevented the fire. It's unfortunate it ended the way it did.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 11:55 pm 
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There may have been another failing of the group's planning...or lack of it.

IF there was a bad relationship, there might be two sides to the story as to why.
Yes, some AF commanders were/are risk adverse and would no want to babysit the group which sounds like they did things their own way...a way not exactly in tune with rules and regulations.

As I commented earlier, by the 1990s the USAF was embracing its history.
It wouldn't have been difficult for the group to get a sympathetic ear when discussing their plans, especially if they had a Congressperson, VIP, someone notable or the AF Museum in their corner.
Considering Greenamyer's fame and contacts in Lockheed or the NASM, I would have thought THAT part would have been easy.

Let's not automatically assume the Thule commander was the bad guy
He might have been, heaven knows I ran into a few (very few) martinets, or maybe it was just a guy who didn't want an uninvited civil ship of unknown air worthiness leaking oil on "his" ramp.

I've found the further a base is from a higher headquarters, they more accommodating they tended to be. And you can't get more remote than Thule. Thule isn't Andrews...where a leaking antique wouldn't be very welcome...(though they invited "my" rented H-13 to their open hose..they parked us next to the SR-71).

If there was any bad blood, perhaps the group gave him reason for for any antagonism?

Perhaps it was just bad communications.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 6:10 am 
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lucky52 wrote:
Did the recovery crew hang 4 overhauled on the plane for the flight out and bring back the original engines?


That was my understanding from what I have read. The original engines were brought back to the states. Some sources suggest they were given/sold to the CAF. At least one appeared for sale recently. I'm assuming the original (bent) props are still at the crash site. One of those would make a neat museum piece.
If the tail of the Kee Bird is still intact, the tail gun position and the tail gunners side hatch might be needed. I think the Barksdale B-29 has a fake, sheet metal covered tail gun position.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 6:18 am 
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kalamazookid wrote:
JohnB wrote:
If they'd pulled it off they'd be seen as rebellious heros...
Since the didn't, they're seen as reckless cowboys.

There's a very fine line between the two.


I've spent a lot of time outdoors in adverse weather conditions in my life - and not anywhere close to the extent that the Kee Bird recovery crew did. It's hard to properly state how experiencing those conditions can wear on you and simultaneously impart a sense of urgency and reminder of the fragility of your own existence. If you haven't experienced anything like that, it's difficult and maybe impossible to understand what that can do to a person's psyche. I believe that was likely as much a factor in the fate of Kee Bird as anything else.


I absolutely agree. I've spent a lot of time working on the flight-line in Keflavik (and been to Greenland) in my C-130 Crew Chief days. At times, the conditions were almost unbearable but at least I had a warm hangar to run to when I needed a break. I can't imagine what the recovery crew faced. I don't think the Nova documentary really showed how bad it was at times.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:58 am 
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Thanks APG85.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 6:42 am 
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On another note, the saga of the C-7B Caribou 62-4179 used in the Kee Bird operation is pretty interesting.
Unfortunately, it was scrapped in Florida. Anyone know how it ended up there? I'm assuming it was sold off after it returned from Greenland. Shame it wasn't preserved in a museum.

Article by Vernon Rich on the return home:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-spac ... 180979355/

Some pictures of the Caribou in Florida:

https://www.airhistory.net/registration/N124DG

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 11:27 am 
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Around 1985 I saw what I think was one of the last Army Guard C-7 aircraft at our base (KEFD). IIRC, they had brought us some parts from Mississippi and had a cylinder crap out. It was there about a week before it flew out. I wish I had taken a picture of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2025 11:52 pm 
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So is there any interest in recovering what's left, assuming it's worth recovering?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 6:44 am 
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quemerford wrote:
So is there any interest in recovering what's left, assuming it's worth recovering?


Years ago I read there was "talk" of recovering some items from the wreck site but I don't think it ever happened.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2025 11:52 am 
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The NOVA documentary only showed us a short, edited, glimpse of the video footage. I think it would absolutely fascinating to see all of the raw, unedited video. I suspect it would certainly change options of what happened, for better or worse.

In recent pics of the wreckage, you can definitely see some post-fire damage that occurred when they bulldozed everything into a pile. Crunched spots on the wings, bent props. The engines and props looked mostly untouched by the original fire in the documentary. I always wondered why they didn't try to strip them off to recover any of the value right after the fire? But the Caribou was out of action and weather was very unfavorable, which probably made any further salvage uneconomical and dangerous.

Below is a discussion from 1996 on the old USE Newsgroups. Might be a new first have account of what happened to some of you.

Quote:
------------------------ From rec.aviation.military -----------------------

Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM

I read with interest all of the postings to this news group about the
ill-fated B-29 Kee Bird recovery expedition. Many saddened me. As you might
recall about 1 1/2 years ago I posted to this news group a story about the
1994 Kee Bird recovery expedition. My brother-in-law, Bob Vanderveen, was
one of the few "lucky" people have gone on that expedition and the 1995 one.
He nearly died in the tragic fire that consumed the B-29. Perhaps the one
item which saddened me the most about many of the posts was the reoccurring
theme that the expeditions were poorly planned. Nothing can be further from
the truth. They didn't just hop over to Greenland one day after having a
cold one on the back porch in California with the thought of simply dumping
a bit of fuel into the Kee Bird, kicking over the engines and flying the
bird back to the States. Come on, just think a moment about the logistics
of the expeditions for just a moment. (By the way, I don't purport to be
an expert as to what happened during the trips nor am I a real aviation
enthusiast)
- They had to find, buy, rebuild and test four B-29 carbureted engines.
They did this work in Ramona, California many, many months before the
summer 1994 trip. Bob and a number of others spent many long hours for
months attending to those engines. Spare parts are not in plentiful
supply for B-29s.
- They had to build and scrounge up an incredible amount of parts,
supplies and tools to take back with them to Greenland, including a
crane, bulldozer, propellers, cables, tires, bomb-bay doors, food for
6-8 weeks...
- They had to plan with Thule Air Force Base to allow them use the base
for part of their operations.
- Only one barge per year goes between North American and Thule.
The four rebuild engines along with a lot of the other parts had to
get on it. This stuff had to get loaded on trucks and carted to the
east coast in time for the barge departure. This had to be done
months before they would get to Greenland in 1994.
- ...

It should go with out saying that this required a lot of planning on
Darryl Greenamyer's part.

As to the donation argument, even after all the press about the 1994
exhibition, they couldn't even find even one donor to give them the
necessary clothing for the much colder 1995 mission. Each member had
to buy their own equipment.

With that said, here's a little from what my brother-in-law told me
about the last mission. (It's been awhile since he told me this story,
so some of the info might not be completely accurate. Also, Bob hasn't
wanted to talk about it too much.)

Bob was one of the four people on the Kee Bird during its last run.
He was stationed in the rear of the plane. While the plane was moving
down the bumpy, icy runway on top of the frozen lake, a lot of dust
swelled up inside the plane and in the rear cabin from the years of
dirt that accumulated in every nook-and-cranny of the plane. He quickly
realized that he had forgotten to wear his goggles and decided to go to
the middle of the plane to search for them. That's when he discovered the
APU was on fire. When he went to get the goggles, he had to leave the
headset for the intercom to the cockpit in the rear cabin. Once
he saw the fire, he knew he had to alert Darryl, Al Hansen and Thad
Dulin in the cockpit. In a matter of seconds the already dust filled
rear part of the plane became densely filled with thick, black smoke.
Bob had to feel his way back to the rear cabin, scrounge around for the
headset and with what little breath he had left, yell FIRE into mic.
He then had to run back through the smoke, breathing in a number of lung
numbing mouthfuls of the acrid smoke, and tumble out through the bomb-bay
doors onto the harsh ice. Meanwhile, as Darryl, Hansen and Dulin were
scrambling to try to get out of the cockpit hatch, one of them discovered
that their quick-release seat buckles didn't want to release. Another was
quick enough to find a rod and helped to pry the buckle open. Within
moments after Bob popped out the plane, the tail fell off and a few
more moments later after the cockpit crew jumped to safety, the fuselage
was fully involved. The plane continued to burn for hours.

From what it sounds to me, fire extinguishers would have had no effect.
By the time Bob saw the fire, it was already far too advanced to do
anything. Perhaps if they had a firefighter, in full turnout gear and
wearing a SCBA in front of the APU, they might have had a chance...

From what I understand, nothing was worth salvaging after the fire.
My brother-in-law had nearly $10,000 worth of tools, gear and camera
equipment burn up on the plane. He was sleeping on board the plane at
night since his tent somehow didn't arrive in Greenland and so he had
everything in the plane. He completely volunteered on the exhibitions,
while my sister had to work double duty at their Ramona Cafe Restaurant
in Ramona, California while worrying about her husband's safety in
Greenland.

I hope this gives a bit more insight as to what happened during the Kee
Bird recovery mission and that being an armchair coach in a warm 70 degree
home makes it easy to criticize the work of a few brave people out in a
desolate place a few hundred miles from the north pole and in sub-zero
degree weather trying to recover a 43-ton plane. Take it apart, yeah
right. I'm happy that there are still a few people willing to take on
incredible risks.

Perhaps, the one post about the Recovery effort that got me the most
was the one from the "SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer". I would have
thought that Darryl Greenamyer, having been one of the first test pilots
of the SR-71 while at the Lockheed Skunk Works, would have deserved a
little more respect from such a person. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the
intent of her posting. Here is a section of her post:

"They're going to have to get someone else to find it for them. The
guy who found this one, Giles Kershaw, was killed in Antarctica,
flying a photo/support gyrocopter for a group of folks about as good
as the B-29 "rescue" team. I knew Giles from when we went down to..."

Again, I apologize if she really didn't mean to "put down" the rescue
mission.

A few other things:
1. Darryl received permission from Denmark to extract the plane. It was
not there simply for the taking.
2. The location of the plane was well known. The B-29 was supposed to
have been destroyed right after the plane crash landed and its
crew rescued in 1947, but for some reason the orders were never
carried out. If they were, all of this would have been a mute point.
3. The Caribou wasn't chosen for its looks. It had to be able to
carry a large payload and land and take-off on a short (about 1500')
loose dirt/muddy runway.
4. The original engines, which are the late model, fuel-injected versions,
and removed during the 1994 effort, are (I believe) in California. So,
yes, something from the original bird is still around.


Quote:

Feb 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM

>>>>did they bother salvaging anything after fire????,

nope, too expensive to go back and I think Darryl was just too tired
of it all to go back.


>>>> did they fly out bulldozer too??

nope, it was too heavy for the Caribou and it was decided that it
was too dangerous to try and fly it out again during the 1994 trip. I
remember Roger VonGrote, who flew command in the Caribou, gently
persuading Darryl to leave it behind. If the Caribou had been healthy
back in May of 1995, and if time and money had allowed, and if the Kee
Bird not burned, Darryl might have gone back for it anyway because he was
awfully fond of the little dozer.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2025 7:13 am 
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If you dig into youtube, there are some "home videos" taken during the first trip up to Kee Bird a year before the Nova Documentary. It shows them jacking the plane and using a helicopter to weigh down the tail in order to raise the nose up high enough to get the nose gear lowered.
Gary Larkins was part of that effort. Later, he got stuck "cleaning up" the site a week or so after the plane burned. This is detailed in the book "Hunting Warbirds".

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2025 4:41 pm 
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Here is what is left of Kee Bird. https://youtu.be/MJrn03NyUM4?si=9UyZdIEF2L8gG5Yw


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2025 11:14 am 
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the remanents of the nose section/nose wheel have sunk into the relatively shallow lake. At some point shortly after the fire, the wind blew what was left of the tail section into the left wing causing damage. the tail section then sunk into the lake. The thaw/freeze looks like it has caused damage to 3 and 4 engines. At the end of the day the cost of recovering whats left would be hefty.

As for the "end goal" at the time, many were interested in greenland recoveries in the 90s. My gal sal, lacier girl. there were also a bunch of unsuccessful missions. Daryl and others were known to "trade" with the Air Force around this time also. I think Daryl got his F7F on a trade with either the marines or the navy if I recall correctly.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2025 6:09 pm 
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I don't think the USAF would have wanted (unless the terms were very favorable) it as they have other B-29s.

So, it seems the basic question remains unanswered....
Where would it have gone?
No one seems to have a definitive answer as to who it might have been.

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