Warbird Information Exchange

It's supported now by Boeing under an active type certificate, so it's considered to be a "Boeing Product".

BTW, the P-51 is listed under "North American Aviation" because it's not an actively supported type certificate just as the B-24s are listed as "Consolidated" even though they're "theoretically" now part of Lockheed's production through the whole Consolidated->Convair->General Dynamics->Lockheed acquisition chain.

Just to add my personal thoughts, the crew and especially the two Pilot's (As it surely was a joint effort in getting this ship down initially in one piece) should be highly commended for their professionalism. I read Ray's report from the Liberty Foundation, and both Pilot's aboard were highly experience, and recently active Delta Airlines Captains. The airline training alone would have been well used in the emergency in Illinois. Ive also read the many reports, comments, and personal discussion over the response of the fire fighter crews who attended. On balance I think they did all they could given the terrain, and, the equipment they may have had with them. Perhaps this is a point which should be addressed by all branches of the emergency services for a future situation. The obvious question is if an airliner came down like that and passengers were trapped would the attending crews and equipment remain the same as now, unable to cope with such a fire??? This must surely be rectified, and pretty quick, so we dont have footage on the evening news of a similar burning plane, but with a whole different out come.

I posted the following thoughts over on ArmyAirForces.com which I personally think will be reflected in the whole warbird community once the dust settles....

Quote: I have mixed emotions on the future of flying as a passenger, and just flying this venerable old birds in their own right as display pieces. I have heard the two sides to this many times. Many say they should fly, thats where they belong in the sky, and thats the best way to teach current and future generations the WW2 experience. The flip side is, as many such birds become rare 'one off' ships, should they be placed in danger of being sacrificed now, for todays crowds, and lost for those same future generations?

I dont know the true path to all this.

The one uneasy thing does cover the carrying of passengers for pleasure flights. Be they younger people, or, veterans on their final flights. This time, the result of a crash did not involve death or injury..... can we hope it wont happen again? Lets be honest and remember there have been several incidents in recent years (A B-26 Marauder went down with several on board some years back, including a couple of Brits visiting the US). Fighters with passengers aboard have also met tragedies, and the people aboard perished. I'm sure everyone involved in such accidents are aware of the possible dangers, if something should happen. I have read on the websites for the pleasure flights, the operators make that very statement and those wishing to join such flights do so at their own risk.

For myself, I was lucky to have a 20 minute flight in P-51 'Susy' here in 2000, with then owner Paul Morgan. Morgan at that time had several warbirds based at Sywell field, Northampton, UK. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and at the time never once thought of the what if.... A year later, Morgan was flying his Hawker SeaFury when the tips of the prop struck the ground as he landed (the same grass strip I had landed upon in the '51 the year before). The Fury turned turtle, crushed Morgan instantly. When I read about that and realised what might have happened if I'd have been behind Morgan 9in a very similar position as we were in the P-15, well it sent a shiver up my back.

Like I say, risks are there and I'm sure most realise that when the take any heritage flight. My thinking is the companies who insure all such operators on heritage flights will have a big HEADS UP on the destruction of Liberty Belle, and may rethink their involvement in future cover for such flights. I'm mindful, in the USA more than anywhere, the claiming of compensation is very pro active....Big Dollars usually follow $$$$$

Its is a black day indeed for all kinds of reasons, A loss of a B-17, but perhaps the start of an even bigger loss.... the changing of who can fly in these birds and who can afford to insure them....Unquote.

Ian White
305th BGMA UK Contact - 2nd VP

A friend of mine made this video, and sums up the career (life) of Liberty Belle pretty good (if you are pro-Flying them).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7-pk20Wb5E

_________________
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Sure, Charles Lindbergh flew the plane... but Tom Rutledge built the engine!

Visit Django Studios online or Facebook!

Flash back 44-85812 B-17G N4710C of Wheelless Aviation, after Emergency Landing near Rochelle, Georgia August 5, 1976

NTSB Identification: MIA76FKG94
14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation
Aircraft: BOEING B-17G, registration: N4710C

44-85812 B-17G N4710C of Wheelless Aviation, after Emergency Landing near Rochelle, Georgia August 5, 1976 Lewis Collection
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA
F S M/N PURPOSE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3-2520 76/8/5 ROCHELLE,GA BOEING B-17G CR- 0 0 2 COMMERCIAL AIRLINE TRANSPORT, AGE
TIME - 0815 N4710C PX- 0 0 0 AERIAL APPLICATION 38, 8205 TOTAL HOURS, 245
DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0 0 IN TYPE, INSTRUMENT RATED.
DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION
CORDELE,GA LOCAL
TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION
FIRE OR EXPLOSION: IN FLIGHT IN FLIGHT: CLEANUP SWATH
PROBABLE CAUSE(S)
MISCELLANEOUS - UNDETERMINED
FACTOR(S)
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - FIRE IN ENGINE
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - *ERROR-INVALID CODE*
EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES - FORCED LANDING OFF AIRPORT ON LAND SUSPECTED OR KNOWN AIRCRAFT DAMAGE
SPECIAL DATA
TOTAL HOURS IN CROP CONTROL - 600 KIND OF OPERATION - SPRAYING FORESTS
KIND OF CROP - OTHER TYPE OF CHEMICAL USED - DRY CHEMICAL-NONTOXIC
PILOT' S SEAT BELT -FASTENED-PROPERLY GLOVES - NOT USED
GOGGLES - NOT USED CRASH HELMET - NOT AVAILABLE
COCKPIT CRASHPAD - NOT INSTALLED CRASH BAR - NOT INSTALLED
TANK/HOPPER-LOCATION - BELLY TERRAIN-TYPE -LEVEL,FLAT
ELEVATION-AREA BEING TREATED-FEET - 350 SWATH RUN-HOW FLOWN - UNKNOWN/NOT REPORTED
FIRE AFTER IMPACT
REMARKS- FIRE ANT CONTROL. ACFT BURNED AFTER EMERG LNDG. FIRE STARTED AT OR NEAR CARB.

44-85812 B-17G N4710C of Wheelless Aviation, after Emergency Landing near Rochelle, Georgia August 5, 1976 Lewis Collection


44-85812 B-17G N4710C of Wheelless Aviation, after Emergency Landing near Rochelle, Georgia August 5, 1976 Lewis Collection


44-85812 B-17G N4710C of Wheelless Aviation, after Emergency Landing near Rochelle, Georgia August 5, 1976 Lewis Collection


44-85812 B-17G N4710C of Wheelless Aviation, after Emergency Landing near Rochelle, Georgia August 5, 1976 Lewis Collection

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Kind Regards,
Gary Lewis
J.A.F.O.

Actually a bad few days for Douglas products - if you look at the day prior, a DC-6 landed gear up in AK and a DC-7 was damaged in FL taxiing.

One thing to consider for the FD equipment is that a Airport type Vehicle has very large, wide tires on it and are, Typically all wheel drive. The purpose is to be able to cover difficult terrain conditions like in this case.
They are off road equipped designs whereas the typical FD trucks are variations of on road vehicles. They can go off road if the terrain can support them. Not anywhere, anytime like the special purpose units at many of the dedicated airport FD.

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Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

Rich, while modern ARFF trucks are offroad capable, many of the earlier units (such as the Oshkosh pictured in the website mentioned prior) are not, so it's not universal that just because you have an ARFF truck you can take it offroad (unfortunately).

Actually, it's been a bad few days for our favorite types of aircraft recently, but thankfully none of these involved any injuries or fatalities, just some bent birds.

(Reports clipped for brevity)



And Aero Union -

Sorry to see that the DC-7 has been damaged - I hope it's not too serious.

Ian brings up a good point about the future of taking passengers aloft and the “what if” issue. I also took a P-51 ride years ago (ironically, the same Ray Fowler was the pilot) and when he went over the emergency instructions, I was all ears. I truly doubt that many those people who decide on a lark to take a warbird ride have a true understanding of the risks. People got killed all the time in crashes when these aircraft were new, but in many of those cases the pilots were green and had the carelessness of youth that you don’t usually find in modern warbird pilots anymore. In most cases the aircraft are much better maintained than they were back in the day as well. But still, there is always the risk that something truly awful could happen. I can easily imagine another set of hands at the controls of the Belle might have decided to make for the airport after all. You all know that many a pilots last words were, “Don’t worry, she’ll make it.” I have no doubt the right call was made and it was a very gutsy one.
But the question will again be asked, should these rare planes be risked in such a manner? Ian suggested in his post that if the type was exceptionally rare perhaps it shouldn’t be risked. I can’t help but wonder if it would be a smart idea for the Mid Atlantic folks to fly their P-61 once it gets done. Seeing how few of these aircraft exist in any form, is it worth the risk just to see it fly for a while? Naturally I would like to say I saw one in the air at least once, but how heartbroken would we all be to see THAT type of aircraft burn in a field, or - God forbid - with the people still inside? The more rare the aircraft, the greater the loss. How broke up would we all be if this had happened to the CAF’s Fifi? But at least these are other examples of these types of planes to be seen in museums. The question will eventually have to asked, though. How few is too few to risk taking to the air again? And at what point will the FAA step in and say, “All right, enough is enough.” It’s a given that someday, there will be a serious crash with a larger WW2 aircraft that will take the lives of those on board (like the 1988 CAF A-20 crash, only more high-profile), it’s just a matter of time. The day after that will be a scary day for the warbird community indeed.

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Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

The only warbird I have any "stick time" in was T-6 N453WA, which I flew in early 2004. Most folks here will recall what happened to her in May 2005... for those not familiar, she suffered a wing failure in flight due to an unprecedented failure of the wing attach angle, and both occupants perished in the ensuing crash and fire. More than once, I've had the fleeting thought "That could have been me."

You and Jigs are right- things go wrong, planes crash, and such things are somewhat inevitable. Owners and operators have been doing a FANTASTIC job of risk mitigation, however, through excellent and thorough maintenance programs and highly trained crew such as this one, who knew instinctively what to do at the first sign of trouble. I'm also pleased to note a lot of the, shall we say "overly enthusiastic" displays which resulted in significant airframe and personnel losses over the past 20-30 years have pretty much fallen by the wayside... operators are far more cautious in their display routines (by and large), and this too helps mitigate risk.

So while we're right to be cautious and always be aware of the potential threat, that doesn't mean we should pre-emptively shut down warbird operations for fear of possible repercussions if something should happen... the best course of action is to increase vigilance, stay ahead of your maintenance programs, and be ready at all times to take any action necessary to forestall or minimize any potential emergency situation. By doing this, it's my feeling the warbird community will continue to be a thriving one for decades to come.

Respectfully,

Lynn

Okay so I will express MY humble opinion, for your review. I have driven race cars before mandated safety features such as roll cages. I have been a fatalist most of my life. I believe that we can control our destiny to a degree but the Master plan shall prevail. I do not regret driving in any race I have, I do not regret flying in any warbird I have flown in, I will not turn down any warbird I get the chance to fly. Should my fate be a big hole in the ground, I can deal with that.

Anyone who chooses to purchase an "E" coupon for a ride of a life time, needs to understand that putting your butt in a 70 year old warbird has some inherent risk. If you are not willing to make that your potential last ride, save the $400. If you want to experience what gave you the right to get the ride, step up to the plate and enjoy the experience and feel the sprit of those who gave you the opportunity. Our warbird community is the best in the world. Our aircraft and flight crews are as safe as they possibly can be but they are still 70 year old platforms subject to mechanical issues.

This is an unfortunate example but the crew did an amazing job doing their "job" of getting the aircraft on the ground and getting everyone out. That was a spectacular accomplishment demonstrating their training and preparation! My congrats to all. Well done!

Let's go flying! We have much to learn.

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"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."

Well Said!

Yep thats so true, well said that man.

True, but I really don't think a lot of the people who pay to ride in WW2 airplanes really knows this like those who follow them so closely or crew them. Most serious airplane buffs either don't have the money at all or can't justify taking the rent money and instead go to fly on a B-17 and then later look the wife in the eye. I've seen the people who pay for these rides, and I'd say greater than a third are just people with disposeable incomes who are looking for something cool to do and I'm certain many of them don't feel there's any more risk than getting on an airliner.
I've also read some of these waivers they sign. They're really flimsy. Heck, I signed one for my first ride on a Ford tri-motor in the mid 80s and the operator knew I was under the age of 18, which isn't legally binding no matter how it's written! I've never signed any waivers on any WW2 airplane ride I've ever made. Someone in my family could have made life a living hell for the operators of said airplanes had something gone wrong, if they were that type. Frankly, I'm surprised that hasn't happened by now, especially with some of the "cowboy antics" accidents we've seen in the 80s and 90s (thankfully not something that happens nearly as often now).
Make no mistake folks, all it takes is a plane full of people with money going down with all aboard and someone calling a lawyer afterward to make operation of historic airplanes something even more rough than it is now.

_________________
Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)