Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:34 am
CH2Tdriver wrote:You see the aircraft make it's final plunge but then look closely at 0:11, just before impact there is a rapid roll to the Left. I've watched it numerous times, it is definately to the left and is rapid. I am now inclined to think that if G-LOC was induced, Mr Leeward may have come out of it at the last second and did in fact make an attempt to steer away from the crowd.
I don't see that at all.
At 0:11 I see the light wings suddenly become visible against a dark background of the mountain, compared to the light background of the sky where they are not visible well. Might give the impression of a change in planform, but none of the other videos of the incident show such a maneuver.
Think about this logically: if GLOC was an issue (I believe it was, FWIW), then the airplane would be increasing in speed as it headed downhill, and increasing in G due to that elevator trim. Those are not conditions under which a pilot wakes up from GLOC, is able to assess the situation, and then make a rapid control input at the last minute.
I have been "pinned to the stick" while instructing BFM when a student made a flight control input I was not expecting. It is EXTREMELY disorienting, and it's nearly impossible to actually pry your upper body back into an upright position. All the while, you are not executing a G-strain, which means your vision is probably all ready gone...
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:54 am
Post removed at poster's request.
WIXMOD-Baker
WIXMOD-Baker
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:10 pm
CH2Tdriver wrote:Flat 12x2 wrote:mivey wrote:I have to agree with Randy's assessment. I was 30-40 yards to the east of the accident and there was no control over that plane and he came in with full power.
+ 2 on that, a video I saw yesterday showed the Ghost pull up sharply then enter a lazy roll to the right which continued all the way to impact.
Originally I agreed with that assesment until I saw this newly posted video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaWB_7RGTQ4
It is taken from across the field apparently outside the airport, and shows the impact (which we have not seen) from an opposite angle. You see the aircraft make it's final plunge but then look closely at 0:11, just before impact there is a rapid roll to the Left. I've watched it numerous times, it is definately to the left and is rapid. I am now inclined to think that if G-LOC was induced, Mr Leeward may have come out of it at the last second and did in fact make an attempt to steer away from the crowd.
There is a picture just before impact and his helmet is nowhere to be seen. The plane was on it's own path. I watched the last second "turn in" as I was starring at the spinner coming at us. That last 200 feet probable saved my life and many others but I just don't see how the pilot had anything to do with that. From the time it went inverted to impact is around 4-5 seconds.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:12 pm
Randy Haskin wrote:CH2Tdriver wrote:You see the aircraft make it's final plunge but then look closely at 0:11, just before impact there is a rapid roll to the Left. I've watched it numerous times, it is definately to the left and is rapid. I am now inclined to think that if G-LOC was induced, Mr Leeward may have come out of it at the last second and did in fact make an attempt to steer away from the crowd.
I don't see that at all.
At 0:11 I see the light wings suddenly become visible against a dark background of the mountain, compared to the light background of the sky where they are not visible well. Might give the impression of a change in planform, but none of the other videos of the incident show such a maneuver.
I agree with Randy Haskin. I captured the video and blew it up and slowed it down showing the aircraft cross from the white sky background to the darker mountain background and it did not change its bank angle abruptly. It is a trick of the light changes, I believe. I'd rather not post my modified clip as it is not my video.
Randy
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:32 pm
When I first saw the videos and the speed of those aircraft I thought he had simply pulled it into an accelerated stall and subsequent spin entry. These are some of the factors that come into play;
1a) Speed. The P-51D and it's components were designed for a maximum speed of 437 mph/380 kts. This was in a factory new aircraft with a wing loading of X, and in the thinner, smoother air of 25,000'. Straight and level flight. (Mmo limitations unknown to me.)
1B) The Ghost was flying in the 500 mph/ 435 knt. speed (Mmo unknown). The density altitude was probably in the 6 to 9K range, more turbulent and thicker and more resistance than the factory test flights.
2) Trim is essential to flying a stock P-51D smoothly. Modifications in speed, hp., propellor slipstream,C.G., etc.would have changed it's trim settings. THe racer may have required more trim, and force being exerted on the trim tab, than was engineered by N.A.A. to withstand.
3) The video seems to indicate the racers were flying downwind when passing the stands with a tailwind of 10 to twenty knots. Turning to the downwind would have required a steeper bank, and higher g-load than other turns. This increases as ground speed increases. Maybe he was doing more than 6 G's in the turn.
4) The P-51D and TF-51D I have flown, and got typed in, required more down trim as speed increases to hold level altitude, as do most aircraft.
5) To lose a trim tab would cause a very sharp or even violent pitch up as the aircraft now would try to reduce its airspeed to a speed that it is trimmed for, without the trim tab.
6) This would have been an instantaneous increase of G's above the 6+ needed to make the turn, and would incapacitate or G-Loc'd most any pilot.
7) In lieu of pilot inputs the aircraft pitched up sharply, un "G"ing itself. torsional pressures from the engine still at race power rolled it on it's back and the same pressures now pushing the nose downward at full power. It may not have ever totally un "G" d itself upon impact.
the tailwheel unit extending is direct evidence of the extreme G loads, and the uplocks system failed under those loads.
9) I am typed in the Learjet 35A = 476 knots /Mach .81 and have gotten my S.I.C. checkout on the Citation III, Mach .83 and Falcon 10 496 knots/Mach .91 In all cases when I have been flying these aircraft at their max design speeds we have been in thin air at FL 380 to FL450. Yes the GPS is showing 476 knots or maybe even 500 or 600 knots groundspeed but if you look at the indicated airspeed on the dial corresponding to the Mach is will always be below say 280 knots. The limiting factor on fast subsonic aircraft is always something less obvious than the wing or fuselage. On the III and Lear 35, it's the tail. On the Falcons it's the wing root fairings that will come off in flight if you exceed VNE/Mmo.
Are the reno racers now pulling speeds and G-loads in turbulent thick air never envisioned by the original design engineers?
1a) Speed. The P-51D and it's components were designed for a maximum speed of 437 mph/380 kts. This was in a factory new aircraft with a wing loading of X, and in the thinner, smoother air of 25,000'. Straight and level flight. (Mmo limitations unknown to me.)
1B) The Ghost was flying in the 500 mph/ 435 knt. speed (Mmo unknown). The density altitude was probably in the 6 to 9K range, more turbulent and thicker and more resistance than the factory test flights.
2) Trim is essential to flying a stock P-51D smoothly. Modifications in speed, hp., propellor slipstream,C.G., etc.would have changed it's trim settings. THe racer may have required more trim, and force being exerted on the trim tab, than was engineered by N.A.A. to withstand.
3) The video seems to indicate the racers were flying downwind when passing the stands with a tailwind of 10 to twenty knots. Turning to the downwind would have required a steeper bank, and higher g-load than other turns. This increases as ground speed increases. Maybe he was doing more than 6 G's in the turn.
4) The P-51D and TF-51D I have flown, and got typed in, required more down trim as speed increases to hold level altitude, as do most aircraft.
5) To lose a trim tab would cause a very sharp or even violent pitch up as the aircraft now would try to reduce its airspeed to a speed that it is trimmed for, without the trim tab.
6) This would have been an instantaneous increase of G's above the 6+ needed to make the turn, and would incapacitate or G-Loc'd most any pilot.
7) In lieu of pilot inputs the aircraft pitched up sharply, un "G"ing itself. torsional pressures from the engine still at race power rolled it on it's back and the same pressures now pushing the nose downward at full power. It may not have ever totally un "G" d itself upon impact.
the tailwheel unit extending is direct evidence of the extreme G loads, and the uplocks system failed under those loads. 9) I am typed in the Learjet 35A = 476 knots /Mach .81 and have gotten my S.I.C. checkout on the Citation III, Mach .83 and Falcon 10 496 knots/Mach .91 In all cases when I have been flying these aircraft at their max design speeds we have been in thin air at FL 380 to FL450. Yes the GPS is showing 476 knots or maybe even 500 or 600 knots groundspeed but if you look at the indicated airspeed on the dial corresponding to the Mach is will always be below say 280 knots. The limiting factor on fast subsonic aircraft is always something less obvious than the wing or fuselage. On the III and Lear 35, it's the tail. On the Falcons it's the wing root fairings that will come off in flight if you exceed VNE/Mmo.
Are the reno racers now pulling speeds and G-loads in turbulent thick air never envisioned by the original design engineers?
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:50 pm
Not sure if this was discussed, but just getting home from up north with no internet and out of touch and just found out about this about 6 hours ago.
Here are my questions on what I observed in the video's and photos.
1. I noticed the pilots head is missing in view in the canopy when in the nose down attitude,either forward or backward. Would this be because of G-Loc or a possible heart attack?
2. After noticing the elevator trim tab fluttering and eventually being ripped from the aircraft, would the pilot have felt that vibration, and if so, why was the engine at full throttle
when it impacted the ground. ( or at least from the sound video that I have seen, it was in full throttle position and not pulled back.
3. Would the pilot when the aircraft lost control, have time to call in a mayday?
4. What are the effects of no trim tab, would it cause that much of a roll and pitch up?
Just some questions and not meant to be disrespectful to the people involved.
Here are my questions on what I observed in the video's and photos.
1. I noticed the pilots head is missing in view in the canopy when in the nose down attitude,either forward or backward. Would this be because of G-Loc or a possible heart attack?
2. After noticing the elevator trim tab fluttering and eventually being ripped from the aircraft, would the pilot have felt that vibration, and if so, why was the engine at full throttle
when it impacted the ground. ( or at least from the sound video that I have seen, it was in full throttle position and not pulled back.
3. Would the pilot when the aircraft lost control, have time to call in a mayday?
4. What are the effects of no trim tab, would it cause that much of a roll and pitch up?
Just some questions and not meant to be disrespectful to the people involved.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:06 pm
Paul Krumrei wrote:Not sure if this was discussed, but just getting home from up north with no internet and out of touch and just found out about this about 6 hours ago.
Here are my questions on what I observed in the video's and photos.
1. I noticed the pilots head is missing in view in the canopy when in the nose down attitude,either forward or backward. Would this be because of G-Loc or a possible heart attack?
2. After noticing the elevator trim tab fluttering and eventually being ripped from the aircraft, would the pilot have felt that vibration, and if so, why was the engine at full throttle
when it impacted the ground. ( or at least from the sound video that I have seen, it was in full throttle position and not pulled back.
3. Would the pilot when the aircraft lost control, have time to call in a mayday?
4. What are the effects of no trim tab, would it cause that much of a roll and pitch up?
Just some questions and not meant to be disrespectful to the people involved.
Answering these based on my being there and seeing the photos afterward.
1.) His head is forward. The way the cockpit was structured in GG if his head was back it would have been visable. I believe, like Randy Haskins, that he was out cold from the sudden G load.
2.)I can absolutely tell you he was at the same power coming into the ground as when he left the course. The sound is haunting me...cannot get it out of my head and when you are 30-40 yards away from that scream it is the scariest sound I have ever heard.
3.) There has been confirmation from many people listening to the race channel that no mayday was called only communication on that channel after the incident was a "red flag, red flag" call.
4.) Voodoo lost a trim tab in 1998 and Bob Hannah stopped racing after that incident.
http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html information on that site about it.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:34 pm
I heard from a family member of a local pilot who was there and Richard's description was that it all happened "in five heartbeats." From his viewpoint he swore that the pilot made a last second course change before impact, but I'm going with the technical explantions just posted here. IMHO as a non-pilot, it would be pretty hard to hang on to something manuevering that violently at that speed.
I too give thanks that it wasn't any worse. I"m waiting to hear from a friend who was there to see if he's safe.
I am curious why there wasn't a fuel explosion. Richard said the area where he sat was sprayed with avgas.
And lets all be on our toes to counter the b.s. from the non aviating public. I've already had to correct someone and tell them the Jimmy "Wasn't stunting! It was a scheduled, performance!"
That's my little bit of input. I still feel sick about the whole weekend.
Doug
I too give thanks that it wasn't any worse. I"m waiting to hear from a friend who was there to see if he's safe.
I am curious why there wasn't a fuel explosion. Richard said the area where he sat was sprayed with avgas.
And lets all be on our toes to counter the b.s. from the non aviating public. I've already had to correct someone and tell them the Jimmy "Wasn't stunting! It was a scheduled, performance!"
That's my little bit of input. I still feel sick about the whole weekend.
Doug
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:20 pm
Be careful on the speculation.
This racer isn't all that close to how a stock A/C is set up.
Often even the wings and horizontal of a racer are shimmed so the angles of incidence of these could be far different than stock.
Airspeed on a P-51 is redlined at 505MPH per TCDS.
Racers can normally climb to 5-10K in altitude without an engine operating during a mayday by trading the speed for altitude.
Voodoo lost its tab in part due to extended wing fairings down the fus side which changed the nose attitude as speed increased. Excessive elevator trim inputs were required leading to the stress and failure. That failure also caused damage to the rivets in the elevator and it was detached from the torque tube that moves it. Basically had one operating elevator and one freely floating. That one also had some damage to the trim tab operating components in addition to completely loss of the tab.
In this case I don't know if the elevator was damaged to the point of being detached and a portion of the trim tab is still in place. Often the failures are explosive events in that there isn't really any warning, just works until the instant it fails.
As for the lack of fire that is an incredible event. P-51s are not as known for exploding as others. From the blue foam pieces evident on the ramp, that could be foam placed in fuel cells to help dissipate the speed of the fuel in the case of an impact. Also it would have carried a fair bit of water for the boil off system. It may have mixed with the fuel when the impact vaporized the fluids.
This racer isn't all that close to how a stock A/C is set up.
Often even the wings and horizontal of a racer are shimmed so the angles of incidence of these could be far different than stock.
Airspeed on a P-51 is redlined at 505MPH per TCDS.
Racers can normally climb to 5-10K in altitude without an engine operating during a mayday by trading the speed for altitude.
Voodoo lost its tab in part due to extended wing fairings down the fus side which changed the nose attitude as speed increased. Excessive elevator trim inputs were required leading to the stress and failure. That failure also caused damage to the rivets in the elevator and it was detached from the torque tube that moves it. Basically had one operating elevator and one freely floating. That one also had some damage to the trim tab operating components in addition to completely loss of the tab.
In this case I don't know if the elevator was damaged to the point of being detached and a portion of the trim tab is still in place. Often the failures are explosive events in that there isn't really any warning, just works until the instant it fails.
As for the lack of fire that is an incredible event. P-51s are not as known for exploding as others. From the blue foam pieces evident on the ramp, that could be foam placed in fuel cells to help dissipate the speed of the fuel in the case of an impact. Also it would have carried a fair bit of water for the boil off system. It may have mixed with the fuel when the impact vaporized the fluids.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:22 pm
No need to be careful, I am providing my observations from what information is gathered and asking simple questions, to help me understand what I do not know and others may.
Terrible accident, prayers go out to everyone involved.
Terrible accident, prayers go out to everyone involved.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:59 pm
Rich,
I believe that blue material is the AstroTurf/carpet that was in that seating area.
Steve
I believe that blue material is the AstroTurf/carpet that was in that seating area.
Steve
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:18 pm
bipe215 wrote:Rich,
I believe that blue material is the AstroTurf/carpet that was in that seating area.
Steve
Foam is from the plane. Had a piece hit me and it is definitely from the plane.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:20 pm
Randy Haskin wrote:Of what, and for what reason?
Reno?
All airshows?
All aviation?
I'm with Randy on this one. I think standing down from anything other than racing is not necessary.
Chappie
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:26 pm
Glad you're safe, Mivey.
Re: What just happened at Reno?
Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:38 pm
Paul Krumrei wrote:No need to be careful, I am providing my observations from what information is gathered and asking simple questions, to help me understand what I do not know and others may.
Hi Paul,
There is a reason to consider before posting and for all to think before posting. To post again, as a reminder to what I said earlier - Public forums such as this are accessible to all and remarks can (and have been) used not as intended by members of the media against the air racing and vintage aviation interest. The court of public opinion is not 'fair' nor thoughtful and is manipulated by negative interest groups.
And by the way, most of the questions you've raised have been addressed in the thread already, and it is worth a read through for that reason, rather than creating repetition. Not a criticism, just a contextual reminder for us all.
Regards,