What just happened at Reno?

[CoastieJohn]

Let's be really cautious about speculation folks... A lot of stuff like the trim tab is already out there in the media and is probably fair game for discussion, but we wouldn't want to be the source of misguided rumors.

No one is pointing blame on anyone. Knowing some of the facts, we are discussing the possibilities.

Is this not what a discussion board is for to discuss things like this.

Unless it gets to the point where people are point blank saying "this is the reason" I suggest that we continue investigating based on the already obvious evidence that has been pointed out.

Otherwise, what is the sense of having a discussion board?

I don't want to sound like an ungrateful prick, and maybe I am just waking up and not had my caffeine but I think you need to "moderate" it only when it is driven to the point brought to what I mentioned above.

Well said.

I thought the discussion of aerodynamic theory and aerodynamic forces was very interesting and educational.

[Steve S]

A personal request here as we are all twisting and turning through this tragedy in our brain and trying to figure it all out- please take into account that there are many folks whose lives have been permanently altered in ways they never imagined a few days ago. In particular, the speculation of whether or not Jimmy was able to turn the aircraft at the last minute away from the grandstand- and all of us being mechaniclly minded people wanting to look at the how's and whys of what happened and figure out exactly if he did or did not. - Please try to remember that some times those facts are irrelvant after the fact yet they can have a huge impact on the survivors. IE- If Jimmy's widow and family are comforted in the thought that he made a last minute turn that saved some lives well then so be it. THey are faced with so many other hardships right now let them have this- to try and debunk it does no good to anyone.

With so many other misintrepations and half truths going around in the news media ( I am convinced that newscasters are the dumbest people ever put up on a pedestal) we should also be carefull about anything we speculate on this board - I know that it is have been said many times to wait for the official report and I support that request- my concern is that folks that aren't as knowlgeable about this stuff will get access to the threads and start throwing around things that are speculation as facts. Lets face it the news media doesn't give a rats ass about doing the right thing- they want to sell stories and make money- and anyone that thinks they are a public service should have there head examined. My wife had to calm me down in the gym this morning as I was yelling at the TV because the newcaster was still refering to it as the Reno Air Show and questioning the safety of "those Events" as well as stating that a modifaction to the wings ( ie 10' clipped) could have contributed to makeing the aircraft unstable. On this board we all know that this is pure BS but that is the kind of crap they will put out to make a headline and drag out the story. IN the end it is all meaningless and does not bring back the folks that lost there lives so why bother. I only care about figuring what can rationally be done to prevent it from happening again and saving future lives.

I hope this is not the end of the event but do fear that once the lawyers and lawsuites take hold there will not be much left of it and I really really hope this does not trickle down into Airshows and ride programs which have become the bread and butter for many organisations.

Just my own personal 2 cents.


Thanks
Steve S

Last edited by Steve S on Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Shay]

I'm in full agreement Paul Krumrei, Steve Nelson, Bluehawk and Mudge's (from the WV accident thread) sentiments. I seriously doubt anything said here will have ANY impact on either investigation's outcome or findings. And as Mudge "expertly" pointed out with regards to anyone's statements being considered as expert opinion, there is a "DISCLAIMER" a the entry point of this forum.

I think everyone here is only interested in the truth and A LOT of good information from those more experienced and knowledgeable has been most informative in this dark time. Whether you admit or not, speculation is gonna happen. This is a discussion board and just short of locking the site down people are going to continue to discuss. If anything having people share their first hand point of views and knowledge on various subjects helps to steer the discussions correctly towards the end goal. The truth.

Thank you so much to everyone who has provided positive input in this thread.

My 2 cents

Shay

[Paul Krumrei]

I don't think the media is going to go directly to the WIX and claim that 'we' solved the problem and therefor report on it.

They will go directly to the FAA, RENO officials and eyewitnesses.

I have yet to see the world start to crumble, because WIX said so!

[Steve S]

I have been surprised in the past to see what the Media digs and from where- I don't think they are out combing WIX but remember that once you put something in writing on the interenet it is there for the world to see and never goes away.

I also did not mention anything about locking down or censoring- just a request that you step back for a minute to see what you have put down and think about its relevance and affect it may have on others. .

[Paul Krumrei]

I have Been an adult for along time now, I certainly know when and what and what not to to write on the internet.

Sorry to sound so out of shape about it, I just get tired of Moderators, OVER moderating something so tragic, and they feel that the world is going to crumble if we talk about it in a reasonable fashion on this board. ( remember WIX is not the only board on the planet that is discussing this issue )

Then the whole, lawyer bandwagon comes on and says, oh no, don't talk about this or that. cause WIX will get sued.

This is a tragic event, just like others in the past, we all have seen it either first hand or in other ways. It would be like sitting at the coffee table talking about it with a referee telling me every other word I can't or shouldn't say.

Not saying you personally are trying to sensor it, but I guess I am just fed up with people saying what you cannot and can say on a discussion board, when it is in an adult manner and with the utmost respectful way possible to everyone involved.

[Brad]

Let's be really cautious about speculation folks... A lot of stuff like the trim tab is already out there in the media and is probably fair game for discussion, but we wouldn't want to be the source of misguided rumors.

I believe you are overestimating the importance of wix in the grand scheme of things. Everything here is being discussed other places, in far greater detail, and I doubt seriously that this place is going to be turned to for high placed information. Let people wear their big boy pants and consider coming out of high blower on this whole moderating thing a little more often.

[WallyB]

I believe the pilot probably blacked out right after the tab came off when the aircraft bolted skyward pulling significant G forces, and may or may not have regained senses before the crash.

Looking at the long video showing the fly-bys, this photo:

seems to show the trim tab departing when the airplane was already inverted. That would make it an effect rather than the (direct) cause. The initial pull-up appears to me to have been the normal racing escape maneuver in response to whatever the problem was.

[Taylor Stevenson]

Then the whole, lawyer bandwagon comes on and says, oh no, don't talk about this or that. cause WIX will get sued.

This is a tragic event, just like others in the past, we all have seen it either first hand or in other ways. It would be like sitting at the coffee table talking about it with a referee telling me every other word I can't or shouldn't say.

Not saying you personally are trying to sensor it, but I guess I am just fed up with people saying what you cannot and can say on a discussion board, when it is in an adult manner and with the utmost respectful way possible to everyone involved.

Paul,

It is not at all that WIX will get sued, it is that what is said on WIX can add fuel to the fire of litigation that is, in our day and age, bound to follow a tragedy like this... As I said in the WV Crash thread:

"The main reason I believe speculation should be kept to a minimum is that anyone on this site can be made into an "expert" by a prosecutor. My family and friends have been there as the prosecution chose an uninformed, non-pilot and a witness who came to a snap judgment to quote in court with regards to a certain accident. Don't think this site won't be carefully picked apart by attorneys to see how they can get their client, whether rightfully or not, the highest settlement. Been there, done that, seen the repercussions. All it takes is someone saying "This happened..." and the train is off the tracks."

It's a slippery slope, as we all want to be the guy that figures it out or contributes his 2 cents into the discussion, but we must bite our tongues at times for the greater good. I have been guilty of speculation, but it is something that should be kept to a minimum... In response to the "WIX is the only place we can discuss this..." I would say that means we need to watch what we say even more. There are so many "experts", "historians", "experienced pilots", etc. on this forum that this is a perfect place for the prosecution to find "informed" opinions... I am not saying that this WILL happen, just that it COULD happen... and I know we'd all kick ourselves if what we said was used towards the detriment of our colleagues and friends in the industry...

If you need me to elaborate further PM me to discuss...

Taylor Stevenson
me109me109@aol.com

[maradamx3]

I believe the pilot probably blacked out right after the tab came off when the aircraft bolted skyward pulling significant G forces, and may or may not have regained senses before the crash.

Looking at the long video showing the fly-bys, this photo:

seems to show the trim tab departing when the airplane was already inverted. That would make it an effect rather than the (direct) cause. The initial pull-up appears to me to have been the normal racing escape maneuver in response to whatever the problem was.

Not necessarily. The tab could have broken but not completely severed. It doesn't have to come completely off for the adverse effects to occur. You can't draw that conclusion just because of where and when the tab departed the aircraft.
Tommy

[WIXMOD-Alpha]

Sorry to sound so out of shape about it, I just get tired of Moderators, OVER moderating something so tragic, and they feel that the world is going to crumble if we talk about it in a reasonable fashion on this board. ( remember WIX is not the only board on the planet that is discussing this issue )

Then the whole, lawyer bandwagon comes on and says, oh no, don't talk about this or that. cause WIX will get sued.

This is a tragic event, just like others in the past, we all have seen it either first hand or in other ways. It would be like sitting at the coffee table talking about it with a referee telling me every other word I can't or shouldn't say.

Not saying you personally are trying to sensor it, but I guess I am just fed up with people saying what you cannot and can say on a discussion board, when it is in an adult manner and with the utmost respectful way possible to everyone involved.

Not trying to censor at all. Just trying to remind everyone that we should be careful. Note I didn't even say that speculation was wrong...
Look folks, the mod team has PM's asking for the thread to be closed and locked, and others saying we're over-moderating. We can't win. I'm going to err on the side of not censoring if at all possible, but will throw the warning out as a reminder. If anyone does go over the line, you'll get a PM explaining why. Otherwise, y'all are fine.

Carry on...

[Rob Mears]

Have you guys ever seen the NTSB's process for gathering information ad coming to conclusions? They won't even conclude the obvious until an official finding is released at the end of the investigation. There's no way anything said in some public internet forum is going to be brought into their fray when they have all of the physical evidence and direct eyewitness testimony to draw on. Sorry to burst the bubble of anyone here who thinks thier conjecture is being calculated by some NTSB bean counter behind the scenes. Now if you have some otherwise unpublished photos that show critical evidence then you might get the call, but it appears they have mountains of imagery as evidence to draw from according to the lead invesigator, not to mention the complete wreckage of the plane itself.

As for the legal aspect, what attorney in their right mind is going to waste everyone's time putting some speculating internet commando on the stand for witness testimony?

[ZRX61]

Just saw a bit on Fox news, which Mustang was the one they claimed was a pic of GG with a blue nose, checker tail, original canopy & cooling system etc?.. or was that a pic of GG pre boil off system with a different paint job & before the other mods were done?
The only thing that was actually newsworthy is the fact that Trace Gallagher & Megan Kelly apparently don't know the first darn thing about aircraft

Last edited by ZRX61 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Speedy]

Will you guys just please all knock it off?

Will those of you who are getting your panties in a wad because someone didn't like what you had to say just take a step back and engage the brain before firing back?

Will ALL of you just quit speculating that this point? Those of us who are pilots and friends of those lost are smart enough to analyze the stuff that is here and draw our own logical conclusions. If some people are asking questions and not understanding, well, that is understandable. But to quote the scene from Star Wars "THIS BICKERING IS POINTLESS".

A lot of good people died this weekend. This sport and community is not big enough to be pointing fingers and bitching back and forth at each other about this.

So far, WIX is the only board I have dared look at or comment on. At this point I can't bring myself--or rather, don't have the intestinal fortitude--to go on some of the air racing message boards and read the blather of Monday Morning Quarterbacks who have no idea what they're talking about making a mockery of what just happened.

So for the sake of the victims and the families, will you just quit the senseless arguing?

Thanks. I'll go crawl back under my rock now and lick the wounds from this weekend.

[Jack Cook]

I think it's a shame that #1 everyone feels the need to put there 2 cents in. #2 asking questions
that have already been asked and answered just makes a bad situation worse. It reminds of the
the SNJ wing failure crash in FL. Way to many opinions and way to much quarterbacking from the
nose bleed section and it hurt some good folks. It took me a very long time to figure this out but
you'll learn far more by closing your mouth and opening your ears and your mind. The opposite
dosen't work at all. I've learn a great deal just by listening to what Randy has to say. I respect both
what he says and how he says it!
Now everyone back on your soapboxes....................