Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:17 am
Randy--
Once again, there's what's cool about WIX: had no idea when reminiscing online about seeing the CAF Zero fly that its pilot at the time was listening! Seeing the Zero in the air was one of many details that made those three Wings Of Eagles events at Genesee County Airport so very memorable. Snort's bolter in the F-14 was another...you better believe I remember it, as anyone who was there surely would! As I recall, Snort's backseater's parents lived in the Batavia area and were at the show; also it was their anniversary, so the bolter was a kind of ultra-quick anniversary visit from son to parents. Or so the announcer said at the time. (He seemed just as astonished as the rest of us when the bolter actually happened. I still don't think he fully expected it.)
Steve N--
What's "Air Classics"?
S.
Once again, there's what's cool about WIX: had no idea when reminiscing online about seeing the CAF Zero fly that its pilot at the time was listening! Seeing the Zero in the air was one of many details that made those three Wings Of Eagles events at Genesee County Airport so very memorable. Snort's bolter in the F-14 was another...you better believe I remember it, as anyone who was there surely would! As I recall, Snort's backseater's parents lived in the Batavia area and were at the show; also it was their anniversary, so the bolter was a kind of ultra-quick anniversary visit from son to parents. Or so the announcer said at the time. (He seemed just as astonished as the rest of us when the bolter actually happened. I still don't think he fully expected it.)
Steve N--
What's "Air Classics"?
S.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:13 pm
Steve - I agree about WIX being a great place to visit and meet folks. As for the bolter, I was with the Zero at the fuel pits, which were about even with the approach end of the runway. I saw the F-14 dirty up after his normal routine and basically said "He's going to touch down!" He sure did and as I heard later, not being able to hear the narrator, his squadron commander was right there to support the "maneuver" and give the FAA monitor nowhere to go about it. May not be true but it sounds about right. If you ever get to Midland, let me know. Fly safe.
Randy
Randy
Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:36 pm
Thanks for the info Randy. I'll contact them.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:07 pm
14
Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:26 am
Randy, were you at Oskosh the first year that the CONCORD came? I don't know how big the Geneseo runway is, but a F-14 is designed to land on a carrier. I guess the restriction was not some much on what it could do, but what it was cleared to do. The runway at OSH then was 6700' and that British pilot first did a touch and go with full passengers and then a full stop landing. I belive he knew how to fly, seems like his name was Cook? They had a pretty good sailor once by that name.
Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:53 am
Bill - no, wasn't there. The only time I was around a Concorde at an air show was in the mid 1980s at Waco (TSTI). I had my Triplane there and performed and they posed the Dr.I under the nose of the Concorde for some photos. I'd have to do some digging to find a copy now.
Randy
Randy
tri-plane
Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:34 pm
Randy, I had forgotten about you flying that Tri-plane! Howard told me that was about the only hard- to- fly plane he ever tried. He said it cruised about 60 and stalled about 50! It did look great, what ever happened to it?
Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:54 pm
Mr. Wilson,
Love to see the pics of the Tripe and the Concorde if you could find them. Also nice to see that there are people out there who have made the leap from WWI fighters to WWII... I spent last year doing airshows in a Dr.1 and in the long term hope to step up to combat types from the "big show". Figure the Harvard checkout earlier this year was a good move in that direction.
Anyways. Love to see some good triplane pics if you have em (to totally take this thread off topic ). What kind of engine did you have in it btw?
Cheers
Edward
Love to see the pics of the Tripe and the Concorde if you could find them. Also nice to see that there are people out there who have made the leap from WWI fighters to WWII... I spent last year doing airshows in a Dr.1 and in the long term hope to step up to combat types from the "big show". Figure the Harvard checkout earlier this year was a good move in that direction.
Anyways. Love to see some good triplane pics if you have em (to totally take this thread off topic
). What kind of engine did you have in it btw?
Cheers
Edward
Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:08 pm
Bill - The Fighting Air Command bought Howard's Dr.I replica and that's the Triplane I first flew for several hours and then crashed big time in at a little air show at Hartlee Field in Nov 1984. The plane exploded and burned a few seconds after I crawled out of it. I'm fortunate to have a very hard head.
I had already purchased another Dr.I Triplane replica of my own before the crash and that's the one that I flew for several years in the air show circuit. It is a bit odd to survive a crash and then a few weeks later have to be the test pilot of another plane of the same type, at least for me. Fortunately I had my SNJ to climb back into first to make sure I was up for it.
I typically describe flying the Triplane as being in a Link trainer that gets off the ground - you are in control but learning every moment what each push and pull is going to do - and then often amazed at the results. While unstable, the Triplane was a fun airplane and one I really enjoyed flying - at least my own. The high and gusty winds in West Texas helped me decide to offer it to a calmer home and it now resides in the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Addison, Tx.
Randy
I had already purchased another Dr.I Triplane replica of my own before the crash and that's the one that I flew for several years in the air show circuit. It is a bit odd to survive a crash and then a few weeks later have to be the test pilot of another plane of the same type, at least for me. Fortunately I had my SNJ to climb back into first to make sure I was up for it.
I typically describe flying the Triplane as being in a Link trainer that gets off the ground - you are in control but learning every moment what each push and pull is going to do - and then often amazed at the results. While unstable, the Triplane was a fun airplane and one I really enjoyed flying - at least my own. The high and gusty winds in West Texas helped me decide to offer it to a calmer home and it now resides in the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Addison, Tx.
Randy
Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:23 pm
Edward - I'll have to dig thru some old boxes of pictures and CAF stuff, but if I can find any pictures of my Dr.I and the Concorde, I'll be happy to post them. I do have a number of photos of it by itself plus some video of it flying.
What plans and engine was your Dr.I?
My Dr.I was a modified Sand's plan build and had a Warner R-500 165hp radial engine, which worked very well. It was a bit over propped but it gave good performance. I flew two other Dr.I replicas, one had a Warner and one a flat Lycoming 150hp. I always thought that the Warner was the best match, as it could turn a bigger prop. Few folks realize that the original 110hp rotary in the Dr.I produced that power at only about 1200 rpm and thus the prop's efficiency was much more that a modern engine of the same hp rating at 2500+ rpm. That's one reason we see very few full-scale WWI fighter replicas, as they are very hard to power for their weight with the available engines. You probably know all this.
The Blue Max movie D.VIIs were an excellent example of the engine vs. full-scale and weight problem in replicas. They used 200hp Gypsy Six engines but weighed, as we got them in Texas, over 2000lbs empty - more than a fully loaded real D.VII ready for combat! The Gypsy Six engines produced their supposed 200hp at 2500rpm or so and turned props that looked like toothpicks on those D.VIIs. Not fun replicas to fly, especially in the heat in Texas vs. their originally home in Ireland.
Randy
What plans and engine was your Dr.I?
My Dr.I was a modified Sand's plan build and had a Warner R-500 165hp radial engine, which worked very well. It was a bit over propped but it gave good performance. I flew two other Dr.I replicas, one had a Warner and one a flat Lycoming 150hp. I always thought that the Warner was the best match, as it could turn a bigger prop. Few folks realize that the original 110hp rotary in the Dr.I produced that power at only about 1200 rpm and thus the prop's efficiency was much more that a modern engine of the same hp rating at 2500+ rpm. That's one reason we see very few full-scale WWI fighter replicas, as they are very hard to power for their weight with the available engines. You probably know all this.
The Blue Max movie D.VIIs were an excellent example of the engine vs. full-scale and weight problem in replicas. They used 200hp Gypsy Six engines but weighed, as we got them in Texas, over 2000lbs empty - more than a fully loaded real D.VII ready for combat! The Gypsy Six engines produced their supposed 200hp at 2500rpm or so and turned props that looked like toothpicks on those D.VIIs. Not fun replicas to fly, especially in the heat in Texas vs. their originally home in Ireland.
Randy
Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:11 pm
Randy,
I know someone said it already on this thread, but WIX is a small world indeed. One of your PIREPs on the Dr.I is floating around on the internet and was one of the sources I read in preparation for my first flight in the type (along with the relevant chapter in Frank Tallman's Flying the Old Planes and talks with other members of our museum who have flown the bird).
Sounds like the triplanes we've flown are very similar. The one I've done most of my flying in is also based on modified Sand's plans with a Warner 165hp engine. Great match indeed. The other example I've flown has a big shaky Jake with 235hp up front. Rather a heavy engine for that airplane, and larger diameter than the original also. Still does fly nice with the extra horses though!
And yup, I'm familiar with the challenges of trying to get the right power plant/prop combo for full scale replicas (our museum has 7 over them). None the less I'm glad you gave an example for those other WIXers who may not be so familiar with the WWI replica world. Our current challenge is trying to make an early M14 (actually an AI14) fit on our Sopwith Camel project! Same diameter as the original Bentley, just LOTS more accessories on the back (even after removing the enormous generator).
Interesting observations about the DVII also. Ours has a 200 hp ranger (one that’s getting a little tired these days) and has been flying for over 25 years. Its probably the most anemic airplane in our fleet, and a real shame too because when you get a bit of speed on in a dive you can tell it'd be a real sweet flying airplane with a little more power. Makes sense when you think about accounts of flying them originally.
Anyways. Thanks for the insights and if you can find those pictures some day without too much trouble it'd be great to see some of your triplane days.
Cheers
Edward
I know someone said it already on this thread, but WIX is a small world indeed. One of your PIREPs on the Dr.I is floating around on the internet and was one of the sources I read in preparation for my first flight in the type (along with the relevant chapter in Frank Tallman's Flying the Old Planes and talks with other members of our museum who have flown the bird).
Sounds like the triplanes we've flown are very similar. The one I've done most of my flying in is also based on modified Sand's plans with a Warner 165hp engine. Great match indeed. The other example I've flown has a big shaky Jake with 235hp up front. Rather a heavy engine for that airplane, and larger diameter than the original also. Still does fly nice with the extra horses though!
And yup, I'm familiar with the challenges of trying to get the right power plant/prop combo for full scale replicas (our museum has 7 over them). None the less I'm glad you gave an example for those other WIXers who may not be so familiar with the WWI replica world. Our current challenge is trying to make an early M14 (actually an AI14) fit on our Sopwith Camel project! Same diameter as the original Bentley, just LOTS more accessories on the back (even after removing the enormous generator).
Interesting observations about the DVII also. Ours has a 200 hp ranger (one that’s getting a little tired these days) and has been flying for over 25 years. Its probably the most anemic airplane in our fleet, and a real shame too because when you get a bit of speed on in a dive you can tell it'd be a real sweet flying airplane with a little more power. Makes sense when you think about accounts of flying them originally.
Anyways. Thanks for the insights and if you can find those pictures some day without too much trouble it'd be great to see some of your triplane days.
Cheers
Edward
Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:31 pm
Edward - it may take me a while, but I'l try and post more on the Triplane and the other WWI replicas I've flown. I'm also trying to find the spare time to revamp and improve my own web site about all of this.
I've always thought that the Triplane replicas using anything as large as the 220+ Contenintal or other radials would be totally different aircraft from the originals. It is hard for many to imagine that the original Dr.I weighed only about 900 lbs. The Dr.I that I crashed in weighted 1450 lbs empty and my own about 1205, with a starter and battery but no generator or radio. We won't even go into the main wing spars of the original Dr.I, eh? More later.
Randy
I've always thought that the Triplane replicas using anything as large as the 220+ Contenintal or other radials would be totally different aircraft from the originals. It is hard for many to imagine that the original Dr.I weighed only about 900 lbs. The Dr.I that I crashed in weighted 1450 lbs empty and my own about 1205, with a starter and battery but no generator or radio. We won't even go into the main wing spars of the original Dr.I, eh? More later.
Randy
Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:37 pm
LOL... no I think the spars would one step too far off topic for a thread on the Zero. You're right in that the big engine Triplanes are probably nothing like the real thing. Heck both ones I flew had tailwheels and brakes, so thats a big departure too. Intertsting talking to Fred Murrin about flying his rotary powered triplane with no brakes, a tail skid and original insturments - about the closest thing out there to an "original" I'd say (well.. that and the ex-Ross Walton rotary powered example now with Javier Arango).
Anyways. Thanks for writing up your thoughts on Triplane flying way back when, they were certainly helpful.
Edward
Anyways. Thanks for writing up your thoughts on Triplane flying way back when, they were certainly helpful.
Edward
Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:57 pm
Edward - while the Triplanes I flew had brakes (of sorts, more on that later), the other Blue Max planes did not. Ever landed a Pfalz D.III replica, no brakes, no real stearing, on a paved runway. It works if you have a good wind right down the runway - if not, goto plan 2. Been there, done both - no significant damage on the later. More later.
Randy
Randy
Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:06 pm
Edward - I did once have a chance to fly a rotary engined WWI aircraft - was in the cockpit and we did a run up with the owner at my side, I adjusted the air, gas and spark for max rpm in the blocks but the owner decided that the winds were too much for a flight, so no to. Never got to fly it, which may have been a good thing, from what I've since learned. So, I have a feeling for what those brave soals had to deal with, being not only pilot but the carburetor in the midst of combat, too!
Randy
Randy