If you could go back in time...

[Obergrafeter]

Behind the B-25 ...Budd Conestoga?

[Saville]

Ok so let's say you can go back in time and make those purchases. We'll ignore how you'll bring back the several thousand dollars you'd need to buy the planes (today's dollars bills would land you in jail most probably).

But suppose your time machine doesn't allow you to take the planes with you traveling forward in time. And suppose you DO want to come back in time. The time machine is only big enough to bring you forward./

What would you do with the airplanes so that you could legally and with confidence, get them when you returned to 2007?

[k5083]

What would you do with the airplanes so that you could legally and with confidence, get them when you returned to 2007?

Tricky question. Legally, there would be two options, one being to try to convey ownership of them to your future self and the other being to hide and abandon them so your future self could say "finders keepers."

The conveyance strategy is hard because of the rule against perpetuities, a property law doctrine that makes it very difficult to grant property rights to someone a few generations in the future. For example, if you sought out your grandfather and conveyed a life interest in the planes to him with ownership then passing to his grandson, the transfer likely would not be legally effective. Of course, you could simply give the planes to your granddad and ask him to give them to his grandson, but my granddad was a farmer and probably couldn't resist cannibalizing the planes for tractor parts.

The abandonment strategy is straightforward but you'll need to find a really remote place where no one will find them first, and you'll have to be prepared for some legal headaches when you get them back.

Which feeds into the other dimension of the problem, ensuring their physical security. You might follow the Navy's advice and submerge them in salt water until you're ready to get them. A better idea might be to stash them where no one ever goes, such as in northern Canada, or perhaps around Elizabeth, New Jersey.

The good news is that you can always find out in advance whether your plan will work. Just go in 2007 to the place where you've decided to stash them and if they're there, carry on with the plan. If you don't find them there, your plan won't/didn't work and you should try something else. Uh oh, have I opened up a paradox here?

Now on to the next question. You've got them back in 2007, and they're in perfect airworthy condition. How are you going to convince the FAA to let you fly them as experimentals without tearing them all apart for the FAA inspectors? And what will you say to the competition judges who tell you you've got the colors and markings all wrong?

August

[bomberflight]

I actually think the perfect time is right here and right now

Thanks to the web, we have been granted a front row seat in the hangar while Gary Austin and his team toil away with Diamond Lil.

Through this forum we are collectively very well informed about what's going on around the globe. We're not reliant on reading about something months after the event, wishing we had known in advance so we could have been there! ( Thunder Over Michigan / Flying Legends / Gathering Of Mustangs to name just three )

And sometimes, we get the opportunity to go out and fly in a warbird ! CAF / Collings / Yankee Air Force / and many many more organisations just happy to take us for a ride.

Getting around by commercial airline is proably as good now as it will ever get at the prices we pay today.

There are probably more first class restorations going on now than since 1945.

Can it really get better than this ?

And while lamenting that we can't go back to save more airframes, in time will people look back at 2007 as say, if only "they" had done more to save Swamp Ghost / the Amvets B-17 / Doc ............

How will history judge our collective preservation efforts today ?
( Gary ~ you've already scored an A+ )

[daveymac82c]

Hey Chris Brame,

From what I've been told, in Canada some B-24's were shipped in crates to the difficult to reach locations of farmers that bought the airframes at auction post WWII. Possibly, the airplanes were hacked up, and then sold in parts (fuselage, wings, etc), especially considering the size of a B-24.

Cheers,

David

[Russ Matthews]

Ok so let's say you can go back in time and make those purchases. We'll ignore how you'll bring back the several thousand dollars you'd need to buy the planes (today's dollars bills would land you in jail most probably).

No problem. You need to convert your cash into a commodity that is valuable then as well as now -- say gold, or better yet, diamonds and other precious stones that are easily transportable.

What if you don't have a lot of gold and diamonds lying around? (if you did, you probably bought your dream warbird already). Again, no problem -- remember, we have a time machine! How about going back to ancient Egypt and cleaning out the tombs in the Valley of the Kings (but, be sure to leave King Tut alone). History only records that they were looted some time in the past -- why not by us? (at least we'll put it to some good use) Don't like taking some precious artifacts to save others? Then perhaps you can beat the rush and go back to 1847 to pan for gold at Sutter's Mill. Or grab your SCUBA gear and help yourself to the cargo off a freshly sunken Spanish treasure galleon like the Atocha. The possibilities are endless.

But suppose your time machine doesn't allow you to take the planes with you traveling forward in time. And suppose you DO want to come back in time. The time machine is only big enough to bring you forward.

Well with my vast fortune I could find some remote patch of land in Nevada or Alaska (that I will have purchased in the future) -- dissassemble the airframes, "pickle" them, pack them, and bury them somewhere on what will become my private property.

What would you do with the airplanes so that you could legally and with confidence, get them when you returned to 2007?

The other thing I would do is make a stop in 1958 and donate the money needed to acquire USS Enterprise (CV-6) as a museum ship, collect as many naval aircraft types as possible, and create an endowment (probably in the form of IBM and Coca-Cola stock) to ensure the maintence of the entire collection on into the future.

Technically, in that case I would not be able to "get them," but it would be possible for anyone at all to see them -- and to learn first hand about this revolutionary technology, the pioneers who led the way, and the sacrifices that were made to guarantee our way of life.

Last edited by Russ Matthews on Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[tom d. friedman]

an f7f tigercat, an os2u kingfisher seaplane, an soc seagull seaplane, & a pby flying boat for starters. nobody hit the mega millions lottery yet.......... maybe i'll be a proud multiple warbird owner on friday!!!! if that's the case i'll buy out kermit weeks!!!

[SaxMan]

...The other thing I would do is make a stop in 1956 and donate the money needed to acquire USS Enterprise (CV-6) as a museum ship, collect as many naval aircraft types as possible, and create an endowment (probably in the form of IBM and Coca-Cola stock) to ensure the maintence of the entire collection on into the future..

Amen. Even in the late-50s, people understood the role the "Big E" played in World War II. Why the Navy allowed her to be scrapped has to be one of the most colossal of historical blunders. To me, scrapping Enterprise was akin to lighting a copy of the Declaration of Independence on fire.

As far as the rows and rows of other planes, keep in mind no one really thought about preserving them for historical sakes. Aircraft were essentially disposable. The metal that was recycled from their airframes helped America get back onto its peace time footing and ushered in an era of prosperity. Yes, it is sad to see so many planes scrapped, especially when one considers how few there are today. At the time, however, we were literally beating our swords into plowshares.

[Steve Nelson]

Definately a CG-4A behind the B-25. A couple of other now-extinct types visible in the lineup are the Beech XA-18(?) Grizzly, and a B-32 Dominator (of course that one was eventually put into long-term lunar storage.)

Note there are also two Marauders and two Black Widows, none of which survived. The only reason the Air Force Museum has a Marauder is because the French kept a couple the we gave them to train Air France mechanics. The museum's P-61C apparently was donated by a private owner who bought it in the surplus '50s.

I don't know why the military felt it so necessary to dispose of this batch of aircraft so quickly..especially since they'd been purposely set aside for museums. Even if no one wanted them at the moment, it wouldn't have cost anything to just let them sit there in the desert.

Then again, weren't all the surplus military aircraft turned over to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation? As civilian bean counters, they probably only saw the planes in terms of their value as scrap metal.


Woulda, Shoulda, Coulda.....

SN

[tom d. friedman]

well said saxman!!!

[HELLDIVERS]

Wow I think someone left the lid off the barrel of M.E.K.

[oz rb fan]

i think i'd save the beech grizzly and the b-32

[J.C.Seixas]

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[J.C.Seixas]

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[J.C.Seixas]

Last edited by J.C.Seixas on Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.