Warbird Information Exchange

Some of you guys somewhat know me by now, my father etc. .... I'm 46 and have never flown in a warbird. I have had a few chances here and there, but never took anyone up on anything, probably an ego thing, who knows, but I never get too close to warbird owners out of respect. I'm sure it's a mistake, but that's how I feel about owners and pilots. last year when I was in Chino for the POF airshow, After the show on saturday, I walked up to a grounds fellow and asked him if there would be a way to sit in the cockpit of either a Hellcat or Corsair. I told him I would pay for the chance to do so. He said to follow him, he introduced me to Mark Foster, who I had no idea who he was. (President of POF) he just looked like a young man who cleaned the planes after the show was over. He said I was very welcome to sit in a cockpit. I gave him $100.00 to sit in a Hellcat for a few minutes. To me this was plenty. I treated that airplane like it was made out of Gold. I was very respectful and extremely careful, he even laughed and said not to worry, I wouldn't hurt anything. He was so grateful for the money, he asked me if I wanted to sit in a Corsair cockpit too, which I did and gave him another $100.00. I then asked while we were at it if I could possibly sit in their P-38, or course he said and walked me over to meet the pilot of the P-38, once again I donated $100.00 which Mark never asked for at all. All this time others were hounding anyone who looked like an owner or pilot for the same attention. Which I believe the poor POF folks did their best to accommodate. There was a guy who jumped in the cockpit of the Hellcat after me and I remember him almost pounding on the controls. I told Mark "thank you very much" I now had a small idea of what my father must have felt like. That was enough for me. Even though I would probably love a ride in a warbird, I'll be fine without one. But one thing I am going to try to ask and "GLADLY PAY FOR" this year at Chino's airshow. I would love to have Mark Foster take my father's small photo up with him once when he flys the POF Corsair. That would be my ride in a warbird for life.

Rest assure, I can afford a ride in any warbird that would offer one to me, but there are more deserving folks out there than I. I'm just happy to do my very small part in trying to keep em flying by donating a little cash here and there. Just watching them fly is my reward.

You are a true gentleman to offer that to someone you've never met. That offer means alot and if it can ever work out i'm in.


Thank you.

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-Al Sauer
http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat

It's around NZ$100.00 for a ride in a DC-3 here in NZ, theres
two or three companies selling tickets.
Or you can pay over NZ$2000.00 for ride in a P-51D.

I paid as little as NZ$65.00 for a 25 minute ride in a
PBY-5A Catalina and NZ$90.00 for a 20 minute ride in
a T-6 Texan.

Simon Beck

The Skyhawk is 6800.00, for now. With the price of fuel and all of the fixed costs involved in keeping it safe, sound, and dry, I think that's a bargain. Especially when you take into consideration what you are riding in.



As for the Phantom, it is 10,000.00 . Fuel burn enroute is figured at 20 lbs a mile plus reserve. J-79s don't grow on trees, especially flight worthy civilian J-79s. Is it worth it ? You bet ! When the afterburners kick in on takeoff, it's worth evry penny !!

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"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass..."
Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto

My operating costs on the T-33 are about the same as Eric's Skyraider, just more of it on the fuel side, less on maintenance. Coincidently my rules of engagement for giving rides are the same as Eric's only there's no oil to wipe off, just the funk in your oxygen mask to clean out with an alcohol swab from heavy breathing. It's fun to see the thrill on someone's face after a ride in my airplane...someone who "get's it" as Mustangdriver put it. Good point to consider the OSH flightline volunteers for rides! There's what a ride is worth in real operating costs, or what it's worth as a cool experience. The thing that occurs to me in terms of figuring "what it's worth" is how much the aircraft type gets your juices flowing, when/where will this chance come around again? If it's a T-6 and you're close to warbird ops on a regular basis, you'll probably have the chance again, but if it's a dual control fighter, jet, Skyraider, etc. who knows? The liability thing may close the window even further as time goes on.

I've been up in a DC-3 and was lucky enough for the CAF to take me up in Ol' 927 with my Dad, Sean and Mikey. It was something I will never ever forget. The DC-3 ride cost me $50 and the 927 ride cost me, well you could say it cost me ANOTHER experience I will never forget. I've been telling my wife for several years that I've been saving $1000 for a Mustang ride for my 40th birthday. It's still a couple years away, and if it jumps to $2000, by then, I'm not sure if I can justify it. We'll see.

I have volunteered to go to Florida with the Dixie Wing of the C.A.F. we will be selling rides at Sun n Fun for the week! The last that I heard a ride in Red Nose a duel control P-51D was around $950.00 for 20 minuets in the air. I'm sure that can change with the price of fuel fluctuating so much, I don't think it's get much cheaper than that for stick time behind a Merlin. If you get to Sun n Fun stop by the C.A.F. tent and say hello. It is my understanding that the C.A.F. really wants to make there presences known and it should be a bid tent and hard to miss?

Steve

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"Any excuse is good enough if you're willing to use it!"

As has been alluded to here by BDK and EDowning, I question if you need to consider more then operating costs. What about the liability cost? There is a risk undertaken if you offer a ride and shouldn’t that be factored into the price? The lawyer in me remembers the quote once posted here on WIX and attributed to a Mustang owner that the reason he took out his back seat is he is a rich man and intends to stay that way. Sage advice. Once you factor in the potential damage to your estate and your heirs, maybe it becomes unjustifiable economically to give rides. The aviation fan in me hates to hear that, but I sure understand those that don’t want to take the risk.

That being said, I am surprised that many wealthy (or not so wealthy) warbird owners don’t take more care in how they estate plan/asset protect plan with their warbirds. I am an estate planning/asset protection attorney in Ohio and I can easily put together a plan involving Trusts and LLCs/Corporations that will isolate liability to the extent that it may not effect the heirs at all. (Outside of the loss of the owner and aircraft, the remaining assets of the owner and the family assets would be protected.) Is it cheap? No, but it can be done here in Ohio. I can’t keep you from being sued, but I can make it very very difficult for the injured party to collect a penny from your family. I’m shocked that it isn’t talked about more. (For example I really wonder why many owners keep all their aircraft in one entity. You would be much better off to have an entity per aircraft.) Being as I can’t speak for the laws in any state other then Ohio, I wonder if maybe there is less planning opportunity in other states? (I will honestly admit, that I wonder how long Ohio Law will allow such planning. I expect to see in the next 10 to 20 years a change that will allow more aggressive asset collection upon death.)

Oh and I’ve seen it mentioned here a few times that “I said it my will that my family can’t sue if I die” or “I’ve told them they can’t sue.” Those kind of statements aren’t worth the breath or the paper they are written on. You cannot forbid your estate/heirs from filing such as suite for three reasons. One you are dead - unless you haunt them, you can’t stop anything. Second your estate is a separate legal entity and you cannot foreclose its rights. Thirdly, your family member may have suit of their own standing that has nothing to do with your estate.

Jim

Jim, I'm not an estate lawyer, but in Texas, setting up a separate LLC or private corporation for an aircraft is fairly easy and relatively inexpensive. I know of several museums and airlines in the US that use your idea and have each aircraft registered to a separate company (usually Nxxxxx, Inc. or Nxxxxx LLC) to limit liability, but in one case I know of, the insurance company stopped them from creating more companies because it refused to give a blanket policy for the operator if it had more than a certain number of companies under its umbrella, so now they have 2 or 3 planes per LLC and that seemed to satisfy the insurance company.

What is a ride worth to me? That has changed many times over the years. Almost 5 years ago I paid $550 US (back when the Cdn dollar was lower) to go flying in Spam Can at Chino. That was a thrill for sure, however, I doubt that I would do it again. I've also had far more meaningful flights, that I didn't pay anything for, or that only cost me a cup of coffee for the pilot. I've been around the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum for almost 10 years now, started out at age 10. I haven't paid any money for a single flight (unless you include the annual flight that comes with the membership) however I've flown in many museum types. This cost me lots and lots of dedication and hard work, expecting nothing in return. The people that constantly ask for flights, or waste time complaining about others getting flights, don't get asked to go up. To rip off Mastercard a little bit...

10 Years Membership at CWH... ~ $1 000
Flight in Spam Can................... $550
Private Pilot License.................~ $10 000
Having a friend surprise you and take you up in a Piper Comanchee, Harvard, Stearman, Chipmunk, or anything for that matter... Priceless!

For those who are not able to volunteer, or choose not to, I think all of the flight membership rates are fair considering the cost of operating them and the work that goes into keeping them flying. Also the flight includes a membership to the museum, allowing the purchaser to become a part of the museum and volunteer if they choose.

Sorry for the long winded post...

Indeed, I use a similar approach with LLC's in some of my business practices. (Not aircraft related and perfectly legal for tax purposes and client liability) .... but God knows I wouldn't want to drag this thread down the toilet with this kind of conversation. My easy solution to rides? .... my little Globe swift still has one one seat missing from my father, who at the young age of 84 decided he shouldn't take anyone up for a ride anymore so he removed a seat. You may lose revenue, but you'll never have to worry about anyone asking for a ride ...

Most I have paid for a warbird ride is 24 years in the Air Force for lots of free C-130 and C-141 rides. I got a KC-10 ride for several days on a photo mission, and a ride in a traditional KC-135.

When a youth in Civil Air Patrol, I got a ride in a T-29 nav trainer for the cost of going to New Orleans for the weekend, plane was going the flight was free.

I also got a fun ride in an operational O-2 taking photos during a training run at the local bomb range.

I don't know that I would pay cash to ride, but I would work to ride, and don't mind helping for a freebee.

Kurt (Retired AF MSgt, 24 years)

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A-7D, the Short Little Ugly "Flyer" and A-10A Warthog, weren't called an ATTACK plane for nothing. Remember for a little relief on the ground, call your local Air Force to "Go Ugly Early"!

I guess I’m lucky. Being a CAF member I get the opportunity to fly several times a year for free. I have worked on a P-38, P-51, Hellcat, Wildcat, Bearcat, SNJ, T-34, Zero, C-131 and a C-46 not to mention our PBJ. I get to work air shows like Edwards, Magu, Chino, Shafter and our own Camarillo Air Show. Now if that’s not worth the $250.00 a year dues I don’t know what is. A lot of BANG for your buck!

Dan

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I don't recall ever asking for a ride but have flown with most everyone around here. With the exception of a nasty cross county off the runway jaunt followed by a wicked ground loop in a T-6 it's all been fun. I have a good time by keeping my expectations at zero. I'll help anyone anytime I can and don't expect anything in return except maybe a thank you or a coke from the pop machine once in a while.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Very interesting reading. I haven't flown a minute since retiring from the airline in 1991 and leaving the CAF in 1993 so I'm probably out of touch. In the CAF I never rode in their aircraft. When I was on one, I was flying it as a cockpit crew member so my being on board was essential for the operation being conducted. I did increase my personal liability insurance coverage since I didn't know for sure if I was covered under the CAF's umbrella policy.

But I'm wondering what the FAR's say about carrying passengers for compensation/reimbursement in a non-air carrier/charter type operation.

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