Wed May 28, 2008 10:19 pm
Matt Gunsch wrote:this 109 has a wooden prop as shown in the belly landing this same plane did several months ago. With the wooden prop, the chance of engine damage is slight.
Different aircraft, same operator. The other was '109G-4" Red 7
Dave
Thu May 29, 2008 8:48 am
OK, their is a LOT of way off speculation here.
THE FACTS
It was NOT a ground loop
The prop very likely hit the ground, but only the very tip.
As accidents go, its is VERY minor, less then the Spit/Hurri incident 3 weeks ago in Galveston, TX.
Professional notes
ALL landing gear starting sometime in the mid 1930's had a LOCKING mechanism to keep the gear down. The reliability of those locks are a combination of both design and maintenance, and a little luck.
Clearly in the video the lock failed to engage (pilot may have known too), and the gear folded into the well. It did NOT collapse immediately, but slowly, as the force on the gear overcame the hydraulic actuator. Where it a mechanical system, the gear would have snapped into the well very quickly.
While the prop is mounted high, it still is very likely the prop tip hit the ground. Depending on how much it hit, it could be as light as close inspection of the prop hub and flange on engine, to a complete tear down of the engine for Dye-Pen and/or Mag Flux check.
IMHO, the pilot did an excellent job controlling it as they 109 slid off the runway, and did not let it tip on nose.
AS to the history of mounting the gear like that
The wing is too thin to mount the gear to fold in. You need space for the retraction mechanism. AND you need lots of structure. Folding out saves a LOT of weight, critical in a fighter.
Conversely, The FW-190 is a beefier design, designed for large loads on the wings, and thicker wings, so it could mount the mechanism on the wings.
109 is a Foil, 190 is a Saber.
S!
THE FACTS
It was NOT a ground loop
The prop very likely hit the ground, but only the very tip.
As accidents go, its is VERY minor, less then the Spit/Hurri incident 3 weeks ago in Galveston, TX.
Professional notes
ALL landing gear starting sometime in the mid 1930's had a LOCKING mechanism to keep the gear down. The reliability of those locks are a combination of both design and maintenance, and a little luck.
Clearly in the video the lock failed to engage (pilot may have known too), and the gear folded into the well. It did NOT collapse immediately, but slowly, as the force on the gear overcame the hydraulic actuator. Where it a mechanical system, the gear would have snapped into the well very quickly.
While the prop is mounted high, it still is very likely the prop tip hit the ground. Depending on how much it hit, it could be as light as close inspection of the prop hub and flange on engine, to a complete tear down of the engine for Dye-Pen and/or Mag Flux check.
IMHO, the pilot did an excellent job controlling it as they 109 slid off the runway, and did not let it tip on nose.
AS to the history of mounting the gear like that
The wing is too thin to mount the gear to fold in. You need space for the retraction mechanism. AND you need lots of structure. Folding out saves a LOT of weight, critical in a fighter.
Conversely, The FW-190 is a beefier design, designed for large loads on the wings, and thicker wings, so it could mount the mechanism on the wings.
109 is a Foil, 190 is a Saber.
S!
Thu May 29, 2008 11:42 am
All three Bf 109 owned by the Messerschmitt Foundation use wooden composite Hoffmann props:
http://www.hoffmann-prop.com/p1313.htm
Since their first Bf 109 restoration (first flight April 1982) they use wooden props to minimize damage to the engine in case of ground contact. The blades are shaped to the same contour like the original metal props.
Here a picture done by A. M. Mayer
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/cat/5 ... y/13024688
Some additional Info about this Bf 109 here:
http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/web.p ... lugzeug=65
http://www.hoffmann-prop.com/p1313.htm
Since their first Bf 109 restoration (first flight April 1982) they use wooden props to minimize damage to the engine in case of ground contact. The blades are shaped to the same contour like the original metal props.
Here a picture done by A. M. Mayer
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/cat/5 ... y/13024688
Some additional Info about this Bf 109 here:
http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/web.p ... lugzeug=65
Fri May 30, 2008 4:56 am
Thanks M.P. for the Hoffmann info as well as the the links to your video archive..excellent!!! 
I wonder if the Hoffmann alternative...or somesuch creativity..could be applied as a solution
to the P/F-82 propellor supply problem???
I wonder if the Hoffmann alternative...or somesuch creativity..could be applied as a solution
to the P/F-82 propellor supply problem???
Sat May 31, 2008 3:49 am
airnutz wrote:I wonder if the Hoffmann alternative...or somesuch creativity..could be applied as a solution
to the P/F-82 propellor supply problem???
I believe it already has.
Sat May 31, 2008 4:01 am
warbird1 wrote:airnutz wrote:I wonder if the Hoffmann alternative...or somesuch creativity..could be applied as a solution
to the P/F-82 propellor supply problem???
I believe it already has.
Squeeze me? Baking powder? More please Sir???
Sat May 31, 2008 4:08 am
airnutz wrote:warbird1 wrote:airnutz wrote:I wonder if the Hoffmann alternative...or somesuch creativity..could be applied as a solution
to the P/F-82 propellor supply problem???
I believe it already has.
Squeeze me? Baking powder? More please Sir???
Somebody involved in a Twin Mustang restoration has already approached Hoffman with this very solution. I don't know any details other than that. I've heard that it is going to be VERY expensive. That's the only drawback.