Spitfire - difficult Take Off and Landing?

Augsburgeagle · **Joined:** Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:17 am **Posts:** 112

Just to correct you Bill that should be spitfeur

Threadjack over

Christer · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:22 pm

Matt,
I've read through the page on that site and found comments made by the late Mark Hanna (Old Flying Machine Company). He made those comments while actually flying the aircraft, not by memory from several years back. Walter Eichorn was/is a current Bf 109 pilot.

Quote:

There's no time to hang around and worry about the take off. Here we go... Power gently up and keep it coming smoothly up to +8 (46")... it's VERY noisy ! Keep the tail down initially, keep it straight by feel rather than any positive technique... tail coming up now... once the rudders effective. Unconcious corrections to the rudder are happening all the time. It's incredcibly entertaining to watch the '109 take off or land. The rudder literally flashes around ! The alternative technique (rather tongue in cheek) is Walter Eichorn's, of using full right rudder throughout the take-off roll and varying the swing with the throttle!
The little fighter is now bucketing along, accelerating rapidly. As the tail lifts there is a positive tendancy to swing left - this can be checked easily however, although if you are really agressive lifting the tail it is difficult to stop and happens very quickly. Now the tail's up and you can see vagualy where you are going. It's a rough, wild, buckety ride on grass and with noise, smoke from the stakcs and the aeroplane bouncing around it's exciting !
Quick glance at the ASI - 100 mph, slight check back on the stick and we're flying.

He doesn't mention anything but a swing to the left when raising the tail and more so when raising it agressively.

[Speculating mode on]
I have thought about the alleged tendency to swing/turn to the right. In the context of the Spitfire, I seem to remember reading about "crabbing" (moving sideways). On a hard surface, there was no "crabbing" but on grass with less grip there was. A Merlin Spit was "crabbing" to the right but a Griffon Spit was "crabbing" to the left. With a locked tailwheel firmly on the ground, maybe that induced a turn to the right on a BF 109?
[Speculating mode off]

Christer

*Zwitter* · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:01 pm

Bill Greenwood wrote:

Zwitter, if I knew about your flying background and experience, if any, I might be able to give some better info. However, in any event I'd get familiar with the controls and intruments of the Spitfire before you fly. You can likely get a copy of the Mk IX Pilot Notes. The two seaters are IXs except the prototype which is an VIII, about the same. You can also go to the airport and look at the plane. I'd get there early for the scheduled flight and try to get a good ground briefing from the pilot. Hopefully the weather will be good and your pilot will emphasize having you learn the plane and see what it does, more so than just showing how good a pilot he is. If you happen to be flying with John or Carolyn, they are expert pilots, I have never had them for a lesson so I don't know. I would buy an hour if possible, not just a half hour so as to get a real good sample. The pilot can demonstrate the plane and you can get time to fly it also. He can do some acro and should be able to let you do a few stalls and rolls also. Take it easy if you feel at all woosy. You can taxi it for a few minutes also and get a feeling for the ground handling. Good luck.

My experience is virtually nil, just a few Chipmunk flights many years ago as a cadet.

Thanks Bill, much appreciated.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:16 pm

Christer, re turning tendency on takeoff. It is the same for any of these, Merlin engined Spitfires, of P-51, P-40, Hurricane, Buchon 109, or Daimler engined Me 109. The plane wants to yaw and roll to the left on takeoff as you add power. Thus you trim in right rudder, if at all, and hold right rudder on takoff. You can look at the prop and see which way it turns to bite, all the planes above have the prop turning top to the right, or clockwise as seen by the pilot in the cockpit.

Now some Brit planes, Griffon engined Spits, Fireflys, etc. as well as Fury with a Centarus turn the other way and need left rudder on takeoff.

As for the report about flying the real Me109, there may be a misprint. I think you would lift off at 100 km, or 66mph. Almost nothing stays on the ground until 100 mph. The one I seen most up close, an E, gets off and lands about as short as a Spitfire.

Christer · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:22 am

Bill,
I wrote:

Quote:

A Merlin Spit was "crabbing" to the right but a Griffon Spit was "crabbing" to the left.

I re-read the "Pilot's Notes for SPITFIRE XIV and XIX" - Part II - Handling - 49. Take-off:

Quote:

Whenever possible open the throttle slowly up to +7 lb./sq.in. boost only. This is important as there is a strong tendency to swing to the right and to crab in the initial stages of the take-off run. If much power is used tyre wear is severe. +12 lb./sq.in. boost may be used at heavy load, and should in any case be used on becoming airborne to minimise the possibility of lead fouling of the sparking plugs, but +7 lb./sq.in boost is sufficient for a normal take-off.

It doesn't mention the direction of crabbing. I must have speculated that the crabbing is to the left for a Griffon Spit as a reaction to the swing to the right and possibly to the propeller rotation (I would speculate that it bites moving to the right at the lower half of the circle, pushing the aircraft to the left).

You wrote:

Quote:

The plane wants to crab and roll to the left on takeoff as you add power.

This being in the context of the Merlin, if you mean that the crabbing is to the left as well as the torque-roll, then I take your word as gospel since you fly them. My reasoning was incorrect.

Christer

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:33 am

I changed my wording from crab to yaw.
Anyway, everything that I know of with one Merlin needs right rudder on takeoff and climb. It is no problem to counteract the swing to the left as long a you open the throttle slowly as the speed builds up and don't go over plus 8 lbs, (Merlin) initially. At plus 8, a Mk IX "gets with the program" as the pilot who taught me put it.
I have never flown a Griffon one, like aXIV or later. They have a lot of power, a bigger prop and weigh more. The prop turns the other way, so needs left rudder on takeoff.
I have seen takeoffs in MK XVIII using a max of 6lbs and it went straight down the runway.There was a Griffon one based in Denver once. The new owner asked me to check out his pilot in my Spit and then fly theirs. We did the checkout ok, and I did fast taxi their plane to about 30 mph. It really did not feel that much different. I didn't fly it that day, as I wanted a little more time to get familiar, and unfortunately the pilot went cross country into bad weather and was lost so I never flew it. Nice guys, a shame.
I have read of the late very powerful Griffon Seafires going off the deck of the carrier at full combat weight and a lot of power with full left rudder and sort of crow hopping sideways off the deck in a couple of hundred feet.
These latest Spits were serious weapons, perhaps the ultimate piston fighter, but I'll bet not as nice and easy to fly as the early ones. I'll bet it got your pulse rate up in the morning, especially if here were MIGs about. And if this was not enough, they had a few Seafires with Jato bottles on them to add to the 2200 hp of the engine.

Christer · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:44 am

Quote:

I have read of the late very powerful Griffon Seafires going off the deck of the carrier at full combat weight and a lot of power with full left rudder and sort of crow hopping sideways off the deck in a couple of hundred feet.

I wonder if we mean the same thing, you (and your source) > "crow hopping", me (and the Pilot's Notes) > "crabbing"? Probably but in which direction?

Christer

Warbird Information Exchange

Spitfire - difficult Take Off and Landing?

Who is online