Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:18 am
Great thread - keep it coming!
Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:23 am
I once hired a guy who had a brand new A&P ticket but had been working for a well known but now defunct corporate operation. This mech had started out as a cleaner and then worked his way into a mechanic slot with the provision of getting his A&P through experience. The problem was he never got the A&P ticket. He lied about passing the tests. It was years before the department decided to have a copy of everyone's A&P certificate and he was found out after trying to pass off a poorly forged copy. I make a point of asking to see the license at the interview and then copying it for file as soon as someone his hired.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:41 am
I had the luxury of hands-on training working with 3 local A & P/IAs. My late daddy used to joke that I had a well-rounded education. Names withheld to protect the innocent, but he said that one taught me how to do things right, one taught me how patch something to get someone home & the other one taught me how to screw the customer & then cover it up. 
I got my A & P 20 years ago & my IA 3 years later. All I ever worked on were small recip singles & twins & cropdusters with real engines. The big round ones that drip oil! I had some friends that went to a nearby A & P school. If it wasn't a PT-6, chances are they were lost. I can barely start a PT-6 or a Garrett, but now I'm slowly but surely learning my way around those. Since I've had my A & P, I've worked with other A & Ps or IAs & I still learn new stuff. Many of them are much newer mechs than I, but we learn from each other. Locally, as aviation has slowed down, if it weren't for my job running the FBO, I wouldn't be here. With the airport board's demand for shop insurance, & I ain't working for the insurace company, I probably won't be doing much wrench-turning in the near future anyway. I was brought up in aviation, my daddy dragged me into it 35+ years ago, so I don't know any better. If I'd known then what I know now, I'd probably stuck with drafting. My advice to prospective A & Ps who ask about getting in, I tell them unless they just love aircraft, learn to work on cars where there's not nearly the regulatory & liability environment.
I got my A & P 20 years ago & my IA 3 years later. All I ever worked on were small recip singles & twins & cropdusters with real engines. The big round ones that drip oil! I had some friends that went to a nearby A & P school. If it wasn't a PT-6, chances are they were lost. I can barely start a PT-6 or a Garrett, but now I'm slowly but surely learning my way around those. Since I've had my A & P, I've worked with other A & Ps or IAs & I still learn new stuff. Many of them are much newer mechs than I, but we learn from each other. Locally, as aviation has slowed down, if it weren't for my job running the FBO, I wouldn't be here. With the airport board's demand for shop insurance, & I ain't working for the insurace company, I probably won't be doing much wrench-turning in the near future anyway. I was brought up in aviation, my daddy dragged me into it 35+ years ago, so I don't know any better. If I'd known then what I know now, I'd probably stuck with drafting. My advice to prospective A & Ps who ask about getting in, I tell them unless they just love aircraft, learn to work on cars where there's not nearly the regulatory & liability environment.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:54 am
I got my A&P by doing the hands on, then my IA, I spent 5 yrs at one shop, and 8yrs at another as chief inspector. I was fired after they hired a new DOM and I refused to do shoddy and illegal work. I had a planes with 2 worn stabilator cables, that were worn byond limits as defined by Piper and 43.13, he tried to order me to let them go, I told him to do something that was physically impossiable to do, but if he kept it up, I would do my best to make it happen. I also had a prepurchase come in from a local plane dealer who was known for selling junk. Before I had finished the inspection and turned in my report, the DOM had told the purchaser that he was getting a great plane and it was a bargain. I was going to tell the guy that the engine was going to need a top done to it due to ex valve leakage that was so bad I could feel the air on my cheek.
Well the guy bought the plane, and the prepurchase turned into a annual, which I refused to sign off due to the exhaust valves, and I had found a bent flap cable end that the customer refused to replace. As I was doing the compression check, the DOM came over and grabbed the prop from my hand and proceeded to pump it up and down to get the best number and I was told I did not know how to do a compression check, that there was no way I could hear air thru a exhaust valve, that I was hearing the air coming from another cylinders open valve. Think about that part.
I had always told the mechanics that if they could find a engine that would back up in flight to get the best compression, I would buy it, so far, no one has taken me up on it.
I went to the GM with those and other problems I had with the DOM and was asked if what he was doing was illegal or illmoral, I said both, and showed him in the FARs all the ones that they were violating. Well, I was fired.
Anyone that is looking to get a A&P, I tell them to forget about it and go to work for a car dealership, they can go to work for 40 hrs, work book rate and bring home a 100hr paycheck. They don't have the liability, and no FAA to deal with.
The ones that I have found to be bad as A&Ps are the AF crew chiefs who take the exams based on thier time in service, they learn the test and once they have the ticket want you to hire them because they have 10-20yrs in the AF as a crew chief, most could do minor repars to thier plane, but when something big came up, it was call the hydraulics shop, or engine shop, and that mentality carried over. If a plane had a rough mag, a number of them said they would pull the mag and send it to the shop and install a new mag, instead of checking the plugs, cleaning them, and going thru the mag and repairing it themselves, if they even knew how to time a mag.
Something to think about, a co-pilot on a 737 might have 1000 hrs in his log book, of which several hundred hours of which is training and bookwork, so, he might have 700 hours of flying around, maybe training others, or flying frieght, and he is considered experianced.
To get your A&P, you need over 3000 hours of classroom and hands on training, under supervision, before you are qualified to take the exams, which if you pass, you can now go to work for less money than the guy at jiffy lube, because you have no experiance.
If this reads as bashing the industry, it is because it is. I would tell anyone that is thinking about getting into aviation as a living, not to.
Well the guy bought the plane, and the prepurchase turned into a annual, which I refused to sign off due to the exhaust valves, and I had found a bent flap cable end that the customer refused to replace. As I was doing the compression check, the DOM came over and grabbed the prop from my hand and proceeded to pump it up and down to get the best number and I was told I did not know how to do a compression check, that there was no way I could hear air thru a exhaust valve, that I was hearing the air coming from another cylinders open valve. Think about that part.
I had always told the mechanics that if they could find a engine that would back up in flight to get the best compression, I would buy it, so far, no one has taken me up on it.
I went to the GM with those and other problems I had with the DOM and was asked if what he was doing was illegal or illmoral, I said both, and showed him in the FARs all the ones that they were violating. Well, I was fired.
Anyone that is looking to get a A&P, I tell them to forget about it and go to work for a car dealership, they can go to work for 40 hrs, work book rate and bring home a 100hr paycheck. They don't have the liability, and no FAA to deal with.
The ones that I have found to be bad as A&Ps are the AF crew chiefs who take the exams based on thier time in service, they learn the test and once they have the ticket want you to hire them because they have 10-20yrs in the AF as a crew chief, most could do minor repars to thier plane, but when something big came up, it was call the hydraulics shop, or engine shop, and that mentality carried over. If a plane had a rough mag, a number of them said they would pull the mag and send it to the shop and install a new mag, instead of checking the plugs, cleaning them, and going thru the mag and repairing it themselves, if they even knew how to time a mag.
Something to think about, a co-pilot on a 737 might have 1000 hrs in his log book, of which several hundred hours of which is training and bookwork, so, he might have 700 hours of flying around, maybe training others, or flying frieght, and he is considered experianced.
To get your A&P, you need over 3000 hours of classroom and hands on training, under supervision, before you are qualified to take the exams, which if you pass, you can now go to work for less money than the guy at jiffy lube, because you have no experiance.
If this reads as bashing the industry, it is because it is. I would tell anyone that is thinking about getting into aviation as a living, not to.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:30 am
PbyCat-Guy wrote:Does any one have any recomendations for A&P school, or how to get the A&P? I did 6 months of apprentice work for the A&P, so I'd like to get this finnished. I live in the Philadelphia area.
In thinking on this subject I was reminded that the two most competent and well trained younger mechanics I have worked with in the last ten years both got thier training at Moody Aviation in TN. This was one of the toughest programs I have ever heard about, getting more than two C grades in a semester meant them dropping you from the program.
Many of thier graduates went into Christian Missionary work from New Guinea to Africa to the Amazon.
The kicker is that apparently the program was sold to a community college in Washington state and may not be the same.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:06 am
[quote="mike furline"][quote="michaelharadon"][quote="mike furline"][quote="PbyCat-Guy"]
Everyone has a different story, I worked for UAL for 20 years and took an early retirement. [b]I COULD NOT WAIT TO LEAVE. [/b] It was one of the best things I have done.
Regards,
Mike[/quote]
Mike, if you are so inclined, probably a lot of us would like to read why you wanted out of UAL so badly...
Thanks,
Michael[/quote]
Paycut after paycut, loss of my pension, loss of benefits, 8 years without a raise, and on and on and on. There are far to many things to list here.
The ESOP, Employee Stock Ownership Plan. Had to take a paycut on future raises to save the Company from bankruptcy and got UAL Stock in exchange. After the 6 years of ESOP ( no raise's & you weren't allowed to sell the stock) they file bankruptcy. So your stock is worthless. I lost about $150,000 on that.
If you added up all my raise's and then subtracted all the paycuts you average about 0.55% raise per year over 20 years.
I'm very confident in saying the majority of United employees are pretty bitter and fed up. A lot of guys with 20+ years are leaving and we're only in our 40's.
Not really a factor, but after 20 years I still couldn't hold dayshift. Not enough company seniority.
Most major airlines are all the same, either in bankruptcy or on thier way. For the most part it is a very poorly run industry.
Regards,
Mike[/quote]
I got esoped also. Mike your forgot the 6 and 2 schedule and how you got overtime. UAL really suked.. I was still working at my old job and ual so I would call in sick at UAL and get sick pay and go across the ramp and work my old job on freighters and contract work. One day I had to change a window on a 727 in a united hangerwhile getting sick pay from united( I worked inside the plane and my buddies wouldn't let any UAL people inside) By that time I knew there was no future there. When they closed I only had 8 hours on the books
Everyone has a different story, I worked for UAL for 20 years and took an early retirement. [b]I COULD NOT WAIT TO LEAVE. [/b] It was one of the best things I have done.
Regards,
Mike[/quote]
Mike, if you are so inclined, probably a lot of us would like to read why you wanted out of UAL so badly...
Thanks,
Michael[/quote]
Paycut after paycut, loss of my pension, loss of benefits, 8 years without a raise, and on and on and on. There are far to many things to list here.
The ESOP, Employee Stock Ownership Plan. Had to take a paycut on future raises to save the Company from bankruptcy and got UAL Stock in exchange. After the 6 years of ESOP ( no raise's & you weren't allowed to sell the stock) they file bankruptcy. So your stock is worthless. I lost about $150,000 on that.
If you added up all my raise's and then subtracted all the paycuts you average about 0.55% raise per year over 20 years.
I'm very confident in saying the majority of United employees are pretty bitter and fed up. A lot of guys with 20+ years are leaving and we're only in our 40's.
Not really a factor, but after 20 years I still couldn't hold dayshift. Not enough company seniority.
Most major airlines are all the same, either in bankruptcy or on thier way. For the most part it is a very poorly run industry.
Regards,
Mike[/quote]
I got esoped also. Mike your forgot the 6 and 2 schedule and how you got overtime. UAL really suked.. I was still working at my old job and ual so I would call in sick at UAL and get sick pay and go across the ramp and work my old job on freighters and contract work. One day I had to change a window on a 727 in a united hangerwhile getting sick pay from united( I worked inside the plane and my buddies wouldn't let any UAL people inside) By that time I knew there was no future there. When they closed I only had 8 hours on the books
Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:38 am
Matt Gunsch wrote:The ones that I have found to be bad as A&Ps are the AF crew chiefs who take the exams based on thier time in service, they learn the test and once they have the ticket want you to hire them because they have 10-20yrs in the AF as a crew chief, most could do minor repars to thier plane, but when something big came up, it was call the hydraulics shop, or engine shop, and that mentality carried over. If a plane had a rough mag, a number of them said they would pull the mag and send it to the shop and install a new mag, instead of checking the plugs, cleaning them, and going thru the mag and repairing it themselves, if they even knew how to time a mag.
Thanks a lot for the compliment.
I do realize that is true in many cases, but not all. I went to a school for my A&P, but have over 25 years figuring our mechanical issues with cars & pretty much anything else I can get my hands on mechanical or antique radio wise. I also can read, write and use a parts book. Those three things should be another key criteria for an A&P- If you know WHERE to look for the information, know HOW to use the PROPER TOOLS CORRECTLY, and can think critically about the problem, and know and understand how the systems should operate, then you should have no problem. These are things I try to get across to my students. I know I can fix things- and time a magneto. (Bendix or Slick? lol)
I also have to reteach every single one of them about safety wire and how to do it properly! And I refuse to let them use those da*n safety wire pliers. If they can't do it by hand, what will they do when the pliers break?
I believe I could train a monkey to fix an airplane at this point. With a lot less resistance, more understanding and skill than some of the students I get. But the ones who DO want to be there, that DO love the aircraft, who actually STUDY, and PAY ATTENTION, well, Those ones I feel confident about. I am planning to rework my class as best as I can to include real hands on, as opposed to simply the required projects: in my last electrical ops class, I used our (abused) Cessna T-337B for some real world troubleshooting: The students enjoyed the opportunity to get some hands on. I am looking forward to more classes where I can get stuff done on the a/c in our abused aircraft zoo. I am planning real world sheet metal, composite & other projects in line with the courses I instruct. Anything to get their interest & enthusiasm for learning going. That is part of the problem- enthusiasm wanes with dull class after dull class. I hate the lecture part just as much as they do. And I'm the one giving it!
I am going to show this thread, including my comments, to a few people at my school, and see if we can get some serious thought going as to how to improve the situation. I want to produce QUALITY A&Ps- I don't mind if only ONE of my students passes- as long as that ONE is the VERY BEST HE/SHE CAN BE!
Robbie
PS- If you haven't realized it yet, I have no interest in commercial. Won't even apply there, having read about and realized the things mentioned in the previous posting. I eventually want to work in restorations, preferably, or older GA aircraft. I want to be the crusty old guy with the hangar at the end of some small field, who everyone seeks out, because he fixes planes cheap, just because he loves them... And he does it well...
Last edited by Robbie Roberts on Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:12 pm
Funny, with all the different Mechanic's here I wonder what kind of shop we would have .Probly a bunch of misfits .Wonder also what % of this forum are Mech..
Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:07 pm
Robbie Roberts wrote:
PS- If you haven't realized it yet, I have no interest in commercial. Won't even apply there, having read about and realized the things mentioned in the previous posting. I eventually want to work in restorations, preferably, or older GA aircraft. I want to be the crusty old guy with the hangar at the end of some small field, who everyone seeks out, because he fixes planes cheap, just because he loves them... And he does it well...
Robbie, I go to sleep every morning thinking about being just that guy you describe in your last paragraph......
Scott
Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:06 pm
I went to Northrop University's A&P school ('79 & '80) and went on to get an Associate's Degree in Aviation Maintenance Engineering Technology at their engineering school. The A&P instructors were a mix of really old timers and some younger folks. One was a B-17 ball turret gunner that got his first Purple Heart bailing out over Europe, and then got additional Purple Hearts in both Korea and Vietnam. One was from being strafed and the other was when an F-4 exploded next to him (oxygen bottle failure?). A real career Air Force type. Another was a retired airline pilot, retiring before the jets came along. A real grizzled veteran. There were some other instructors, some great and some not so great as you would imagine. I was a decent student and a real gearhead, so I did pretty well. Electricity and pressure carburetors were the hardest subjects for me. Electricity because I just couldn't follow what I couldn't see very well, although I could memorize the calculations and do the work, I had no true understanding. The inductions instructor that taught us pressure carbs was a real snoozarama... Talked in a monotone and had no personality.
All in all I thought I got a very good education there. Pretty much got out of it what I put into it. There was a foreign student though that got straight A grades only because he was a good student. We quizzed him once and he spent 20 minutes locating the magneto on a Rolly Royce Dart engine...
I never did take the written or my O&P tests, but did work my way through the university and periods of underemployment as an aircraft mechanic both on warbirds and in general aviation. Got a lot more flying in doing general aviation stuff though, test flights, aircraft repositioning, etc.
Unfortunately there just isn't much money in the business unless you own your own shop, and even then it is tough.
All in all I thought I got a very good education there. Pretty much got out of it what I put into it. There was a foreign student though that got straight A grades only because he was a good student. We quizzed him once and he spent 20 minutes locating the magneto on a Rolly Royce Dart engine...
I never did take the written or my O&P tests, but did work my way through the university and periods of underemployment as an aircraft mechanic both on warbirds and in general aviation. Got a lot more flying in doing general aviation stuff though, test flights, aircraft repositioning, etc.
Unfortunately there just isn't much money in the business unless you own your own shop, and even then it is tough.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:37 pm
KENLYCO,
I'll bet we could crank out the work, all done first rate, and never have a come back-because everyone here who is a mechanic comes across as thoroughly professional and competent, I wouldn't hesitate to ride in anything this collective group can turn out, 'test flight?' 'lets go!'
Part of the problem I see with Instructors (at least @ Boeing) is they have no real world, out in the freezing rain with skydrol running into your underwear @ 2:14 A.M. trying to get this pig off the gate experience. Every instructor I work with @ Edmonds CC training Boeing people all have 35+ years real world experience from the flight deck to working in shops, to A.O.G. plus my experience as an assembler then Gen av doing all phases of airframe mods with ROBERTSON STOL, a QC Inspector with Boeing and 15 years as an inspector/instructor with BADWRENCH. I find if you can give that real world experience to the students as you do your presentation, it helps them tie theory to reality and they see the how, why, and what that makes the total experience up for them. I also throw in a pretty fair amount of related humorus narrative to help equate blah blah to 'when you do this...if you aren't careful.... it hurts'. I also do a huge amount of coaching of students during 'hands on' shop projects, always showing easier or simpler ways to accomplish a task, showing how to think ahead of the next step and plan progressively as the work goes along. I demonstrate to them simple little quickie tips that make boring things like pattern lay out easier and more creative. I always try and give my classes 110% all the time, Maybe thats why I'm totally ragged out by Friday night-
I'll bet we could crank out the work, all done first rate, and never have a come back-because everyone here who is a mechanic comes across as thoroughly professional and competent, I wouldn't hesitate to ride in anything this collective group can turn out, 'test flight?' 'lets go!'
Part of the problem I see with Instructors (at least @ Boeing) is they have no real world, out in the freezing rain with skydrol running into your underwear @ 2:14 A.M. trying to get this pig off the gate experience. Every instructor I work with @ Edmonds CC training Boeing people all have 35+ years real world experience from the flight deck to working in shops, to A.O.G. plus my experience as an assembler then Gen av doing all phases of airframe mods with ROBERTSON STOL, a QC Inspector with Boeing and 15 years as an inspector/instructor with BADWRENCH. I find if you can give that real world experience to the students as you do your presentation, it helps them tie theory to reality and they see the how, why, and what that makes the total experience up for them. I also throw in a pretty fair amount of related humorus narrative to help equate blah blah to 'when you do this...if you aren't careful.... it hurts'. I also do a huge amount of coaching of students during 'hands on' shop projects, always showing easier or simpler ways to accomplish a task, showing how to think ahead of the next step and plan progressively as the work goes along. I demonstrate to them simple little quickie tips that make boring things like pattern lay out easier and more creative. I always try and give my classes 110% all the time, Maybe thats why I'm totally ragged out by Friday night-
Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:58 pm
One of the better threads ever posted here
Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:15 pm
How many of you felt a little intimidated the day you walk into that hangar, assembly building ,ect.with your small rollaway.I got hired at Pratt as a Test Jet Engine Mechanic, 2 weeks after I got my ticket and it was a little uneasy looking at an F-15 engine with a bunch of Ret. Air Force oldtimers saying you ever built one of these Badboys, No but I changed a turbine section on an J-34.
Something they dont teach you in School is to watch your attitude around some of the guys,Let them teach you and ask alot of question's and if you dont get an answer from 1 of them ask someone else.
Something they dont teach you in School is to watch your attitude around some of the guys,Let them teach you and ask alot of question's and if you dont get an answer from 1 of them ask someone else.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:57 pm
ESOP................now thats funny. I got suckered into that too once. My 1st airline they got us into that. Had like 80,000 grand invested and the last I knew it was worth less than a gal of milk!!!
My 2nd and a Regional carrier came out with a option to buy company stock..............I laughed when my fellow mechanics thought it sounded great. I told them they were stupid and save there $$$ and put it in their pockets cause one day THEY will need it. Sometimes I wonder if they did, esp in Nov when they approved to take a 6% pay cut and then the company announces that they made 5 million 3 days later!!!
My 2nd and a Regional carrier came out with a option to buy company stock..............I laughed when my fellow mechanics thought it sounded great. I told them they were stupid and save there $$$ and put it in their pockets cause one day THEY will need it. Sometimes I wonder if they did, esp in Nov when they approved to take a 6% pay cut and then the company announces that they made 5 million 3 days later!!!
Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:05 pm
True story here!!! I will never forget it. I will share this to my fellow and future A&P mechanics on WIX.
Back in the 90's my uncle bought a Beech 18 for $3,500.00 in the Caribbian. He has earned everything he has got, been working for several airlines and companys over the years but never leaving VT. Well I was in A&P school and he had taken the airplane apart in the islands and put it on a barge to FLL where he put it together and flew it on a ferry flight to VT. We were at MC donalds for lunch one day and I noticed him watching this elderly man pushing a broom across the floor. We both look at each other and he says, "Thats why I love this place, there is always hope for a job".
Back in the 90's my uncle bought a Beech 18 for $3,500.00 in the Caribbian. He has earned everything he has got, been working for several airlines and companys over the years but never leaving VT. Well I was in A&P school and he had taken the airplane apart in the islands and put it on a barge to FLL where he put it together and flew it on a ferry flight to VT. We were at MC donalds for lunch one day and I noticed him watching this elderly man pushing a broom across the floor. We both look at each other and he says, "Thats why I love this place, there is always hope for a job".