LAPES history

[airnutz]

This is a situation I've come across a number of times the US or UK come with an idea but for a number of reasons they have to do it differently to each other.

Yup, I think part of that is due to the needs of the respective intelligence services or the unique requirements of the national military . All American with the USAAF performed the first human pickup from the air, but here in the US we don't see much historic evidence of the technique in service use except for security-veiled instances of the OSS or CIA in Korea or Vietnam. Though we hear the Brits used "the snatch" to retrieve agents from behind the lines in WW2...almost as a common occurence, I've yet to read an account of these operations other than tales of lore.

[airnutz]

This is a situation I've come across a number of times the US or UK come with an idea but for a number of reasons they have to do it differently to each other.

....And of course, each of us has our indigenous Barnes Wallis or Rutan with their own ideas..tho as you found as time goes by we may find ourselves wasting time rediscovering old ground.

[Aeronut]

I've come across a document for a Ground Proximity Airdrop System for a personnel pod. The drop height is a little higher than GPE/LAPES at 175 to 225ft and it proposed a mix of parachutes and retro rockets. Each pod would have 12 seats and one C-130 would carry 4 pods. Prime contractor was Stanley Aviation Corp of Denver.
There were times when the UK and US aidrop systems were together. I have documents for the carriage and dropping of British CLE containers from US C-47s fitted with the Parapack system (the UK Dakotas just used unfaired bomb racks) and of course the UK Medium Stressed Platform (still in service) entered service being dropped from USAF C-82 and C-119, indeed the platform was sized to fit these aircraft rather than the RAFs Beverley. I have the RAF Air Publications for the fitting of the MSP role fit in the C-118 and its identical to that of the Beverley.

[tom d. friedman]

This is a situation I've come across a number of times the US or UK come with an idea but for a number of reasons they have to do it differently to each other.

Yup, I think part of that is due to the needs of the respective intelligence services or the unique requirements of the national military . All American with the USAAF performed the first human pickup from the air, but here in the US we don't see much historic evidence of the technique in service use except for security-veiled instances of the OSS or CIA in Korea or Vietnam. Though we hear the Brits used "the snatch" to retrieve agents from behind the lines in WW2...almost as a common occurence, I've yet to read an account of these operations other than tales of lore.

are you discussing the "fulton sky hook system" used for snagging people in an attached re -enforced suit to a tethered helium balloon & caught by aircraft then winched aboard?? if so i think it was invented post war if i'm not mistaken.

[Aeronut]

The British personnel snatch system was a variation of the glider recovery snatch system. As far as I know it never went further than trials at the RAE Farnborough.

[airnutz]

are you discussing the "fulton sky hook system" used for snagging people in an attached re -enforced suit to a tethered helium balloon & caught by aircraft then winched aboard?? if so i think it was invented post war if i'm not mistaken.

Nope, it's pre-Fulton derived from WW2 glider pickup technology. In fact, Robert Fulton saw a demonstration of one of the All American systems in London post WW2 and felt he could improve upon it. The first human pickup was Sept. !943 of Lt. Alexis Doster...here's some vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4fvCcqtumo

And a later one from the 50's with an Albatross snatcher...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRu6ZxFAVU8

Sorry for the off topic..back to LAPES etc.

Last edited by airnutz on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

[CAPFlyer]

It's all kinda intertwined actually.

The HAP system from All American had two major drawbacks that saw it never used much -

1) It pulled the "victim" out at a low angle, meaning it was useless unless you had a fairly large clearing.
2) It caused the "victim" to go from stopped to full airspeed in a heartbeat, making it wholly unsuitable for injured personnel.

Fulton, seeing these issues thought he had an idea of how to fix both issues, allowing its use anywhere (and allowing the pickup aircraft to be at a higher altitude), having less equipment to be setup (thus allowing faster setup and less time for the "victim" to be exposed), and being softer so that someone with injuries could be safely retrieved. By using the balloon, he solved both problems. Because of the length of the line, there was a much more gentle acceleration, and the "victim" would be lifted for the first 50 or so feet vertically instead of immediately beginning to move horizontally, meaning pickups from areas with little or no clearing could be used.

His capture system was the final innovation because it meant the pilot could see the line all the way to capture, whereas the earlier system required a lot more skill once the line was lost from sight to not hit the "victim" while trying to capture the rope.

[tom d. friedman]

i don't see the word "gently" from the videos i've seen of it!! thanks guys for the insight on that program & equipment.

[airnutz]

It's all kinda intertwined actually.

The HAP system from All American had two major drawbacks that saw it never used much -

1) It pulled the "victim" out at a low angle, meaning it was useless unless you had a fairly large clearing.
2) It caused the "victim" to go from stopped to full airspeed in a heartbeat, making it wholly unsuitable for injured personnel.

Fulton, seeing these issues thought he had an idea of how to fix both issues, allowing its use anywhere (and allowing the pickup aircraft to be at a higher altitude), having less equipment to be setup (thus allowing faster setup and less time for the "victim" to be exposed), and being softer so that someone with injuries could be safely retrieved. By using the balloon, he solved both problems. Because of the length of the line, there was a much more gentle acceleration, and the "victim" would be lifted for the first 50 or so feet vertically instead of immediately beginning to move horizontally, meaning pickups from areas with little or no clearing could be used.

His capture system was the final innovation because it meant the pilot could see the line all the way to capture, whereas the earlier system required a lot more skill once the line was lost from sight to not hit the "victim" while trying to capture the rope.

True on almost all points CAPFlyer. The All American rig did NOT immediately propel the "rider" to the aircrafts airspeed. Like the Fulton rig, the All American HAP from early on used a nylon leader line which brought the snatch force down to just over 7G's(from 17G in early attempts). The Fulton "kick in the pants" shock had a downside, in that the "rider" could be propelled to 75 feet above the slipstream of the snatcher and then he plunge to 200 feet or so below before he stabilised. Not a happy place if you're injured! Regardless the helicopter at both of the devices history made them little more than techno almosts.

As for "victims", the only "victim" I recall since both rigs were operational, was the fatality of the pickup passenger in Germany in 1982 during the last public display of the Fulton STARS.

The jury's still out on whether the intelligence services...Brit or otherwise, used the HAP in a "hot" application as it's been touted in the history books. So far STARS can't claim they achieved "hot" use either... But they do have Operation Coldfeet for a +1.

[seabee1526]

http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/05/isaf-drops-candy-to-afghan-children-kills-51/

[Ken]

The previous post was obviously an attempt at humor but is inappropriate for this thread.

[seabee1526]

poor baby