Dam Busters remake update

[Mudge]

One more little aside about the use of the dreaded "N" word.

A few years back, an elected official in DC was giving a speech about the economic situation in DC. In the speech, he used the word "niggardly". The word means stingy or grudgingly. There was such a great uproar (from the black community) over his use of the word, that he resigned.
Is that a commentary about educational system and the "super-sensitivity" of people to the word or what?

Mudge the dialectitian and grammarian

Last edited by Mudge on Wed May 06, 2009 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

[gary1954]

When is the movie due to be released?

I dunno, but I am so looking forward to it.
Isn't there a 633rd Squadron movie floating around out there that was shot in the 60's using skeetoes, I like to see that old flick

[cozmo]

I understand that that the word was used in the actual mission, and it had meaning important to the mission.

The 1954 movie changed the dog's name for the US release.

If the dogs name were changed for this movie, would the entire message of the movie be less?

There is no way a movie can tell the entire story, decisions have to be made. This one seems pretty easy.

For cryin' out loud, maybe the producers should include a message to the viewer to actually pick up a history book to discover for themselves the entire story of the Dambusters.

I will see the movie, and I will know the dogs real name, so will y'all.

So many words and gestures can be offensive to people of different places and cultures. There are PC battles that need to be fought. Is this one worth using up all your ammo?

The good thing about computers is that you don't need a rubber to correct your spelling. I think I will go have a fag and contemplate a vacation to Phuket and hope this movie will be better than "Pear Harbor".

[Glyn]

Is that a commentary about the "super-sensitivity" of people to the word or what?

Mudge the dialectitian and grammarian

You and I Mudge are old enough to remember when common sense, logic and reason were in vogue and we were expected to employ them. Nowadays it is political correctness above all, even when (or especially when) it is obviously arrant nonsense being spouted.

[Glyn]

[quote="gary1954"]
Isn't there a 633rd Squadron movie floating around out there that was shot in the 60's using skeetoes, I like to see that old flick



I wouldn't bother Gary as it was a pretty dreary production with THREE (count them!) Mosquitos.

[Firebird]

I understand that that the word was used in the actual mission, and it had meaning important to the mission.

Yes, Gibson chose his dogs name (after hearing of it being killed just before embarkation) to be the transmitted code word for a successful breach of the Mohne Dam, and as such the word is somewhat fundamental to a film about the raid

[Mudge]

Isn't there a 633rd Squadron movie floating around out there that was shot in the 60's using skeetoes, I like to see that old flick



I wouldn't bother Gary as it was a pretty dreary production with THREE (count them!) Mosquitos.

Yeah and Cliff Robertson ain't the world's best actor, but the flying scenes are OK. I have a copy which you're welcome to borrow it if you like.

Mudge the magnanimous

[muddyboots]

One more little aside about the use of the dreaded "N" word.

A few years back, an elected official in DC was giving a speech about the economic situation in DC. In the speech, he used the word "niggardly". The word means stingy or grudgingly. There was such a great uproar (from the black community) over his use of the word, that he resigned.
Is that a commentary about educational system and the "super-sensitivity" of people to the word or what?

Mudge the dialectitian and grammarian

Oh I just cain't let it go!

Niggardly is of norse origin, not latin
Glyn, I'm 40. Hardly young any more. And if you add in the "bullet years" I'm prolly about 80...

[muddyboots]

Is that a commentary about the "super-sensitivity" of people to the word or what?

Mudge the dialectitian and grammarian

You and I Mudge are old enough to remember when common sense, logic and reason were in vogue and we were expected to employ them. Nowadays it is political correctness above all, even when (or especially when) it is obviously arrant nonsense being spouted.

I call sugar. Glyn, you grew up in an "eon" when lynchings occurred. I assume since you keep referring to me as a youngun that you are a generation above me. My grandmother was raped by Willie McGee. Look it up if you're too young. These words and the messages they impart are indeed important. I can't imagine anyone short of a bigot or an idiot would deny it.

Glyn, should I start referring to you as "Old Fart"? You act as if you're eight hundred and thirty three. I think the idea of manners still has meaning. I grew up in and now live in the deep south. I have neighbors who are black. A black lady raised me. I would no more allow the word nigger to be used in my earshot (by whites OR blacks) than I would allow you to call my mother. In an age when you old farts decry the loss of civility and the general screwed uppedness of us younguns, one would think you old farts would leap at a chance to teach us children some manners.

What's up with taht?
Are you saying we should all start using the word nigger again to describe blacks? I suggest you walk in your local wal mart and start slinging that hash. Tell us how it turns out.

Mudge, when where YOU in danger of being called anything but a WASP? and hanged? And set on fire for it? Blacks have reason to be sensitive. I am not particularly appreciative of what they have done with the south since they gained political power, but after the generations of being taught they're stupid, and being called niggers as a term of subjugation and abuse, I can see why they would be super sensitive about it.

I need to repeat here that I think they shoudl use the dog's name and the following success code word. Raise the damned rating if that is what it takes. History shouldn't be erased for niceties and pantywaist sensitivity. Simply put a warning up front and let the movie roll.

[Mark_Pilkington]

, Gibson chose his dogs name (after hearing of it being killed just before embarkation) to be the transmitted code word for a successful breach of the Mohne Dam, and as such the word is somewhat fundamental to a film about the raid

Actually, I would have thought the fundamental and important facts of the raid to be covered in any film would be Wallace, the development of the bomb, the convincing of the Military of the bomb's viability, the testing, the modified aircraft, the training, development of the height setting lights, the crews, Gibson, the planning, the execution of the plan, the weather and impact on the targets, the failures of the attack, the dangers and losses of the attack, the casualtys of the crews, the success of the raid, the returning crews, the damage to the German wartime production, the loss of civilian lives?, I dont see the name of a little dog, or the mission code (what ever word was used) being of a greater fundamental importance than any of the issues listed above, and there is only about 120 minutes to fit perhaps 6 months or more of story into?

I think its totally incidental to the story,
- would the outcome have changed if the dog had lived not died, or not existed at all? no not at all!
- would the mission failed with the use of a different mission code?? of course not!

The Film could easily leave out the dog and the mission code all together, or have them covered without the "name" or word ever being uttered! -

Is Gibson emotionally touched by the dog's death on the eve of the mission, perhaps, but that can be told in the scale of its minor importance (did it really affect his performance positively or negatively? or the success of the mission - probably not), but he could even be shown talking to the dog on its death without its name having to be mentioned at all???? and what would that matter? I dont call my pet by its name everytime I interact with it?

It is an offensive word, no different than painting Swastika's on the wall of a synagogue, if such things dont offend you, dont assume they wont offend others, I suspect you will have your own sacred cows and no go issues to defend.

Political Correctness can get out of hand, but dismissing everything as being PC is simply a tactic to excuse ongoing bad behaviour.

The recognition of this word as being highly offensive to many people is simply obvious common sense and understanding, arguing that some rappers use it, therefore its not offensive to the rest is niaive and illogical. Offending someone is clearly measured by their feelings and reactions, not the user's opinion.

It is rather difficult to call someone a Maimed son of a bitch to their face, but argue its not intended to be offensive and I didnt intend it to be? (or I thought it was a term of endearment)


Why seek to distract the educating of a whole new generation of movie goers to such an interesting and heroic wartime story by involving a contentious aspect that will attract complaints when it can be avoided with no real loss to the true important and fundamental story.

Comparisons to the old movie are pointless, it lives on in some video library's, occasionally late night TV or cable, or our own aviation DVD collections, but I bet our children dont watch this out of date B&W movie as their program of choice?

For those who mourn the rise of PC, feel free to boycott it and protest in the streets if its that important an issue to you, personally I am happy to leave it to the film maker to decide.

For those who cant bear the thought of it not being historically accurate to include the name of a dog and mission code, dont go see it, to those concerned it is using CGI do the same?, stay home, and watch the original.

For the rest go and enjoy some entertainment trying to bring a heroic story to new generations - but everyone should remember that it is entertainment, not a text book or documentary.

I consider the word is offensive and do not support its use anywhere, for any purpose, however I will still go and see the movie, regardless of its use accurately or replacement for consideration of others, and am happy to enjoy the movie even the dog and mission code are not mentioned at all, - It the big things in life that really matter!

In the end its "just" a movie.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Holedigger]

Good Post Mark! If the name of the dog is the ONLY historical fact "whitewashed" or left out, it should be a very good movie! This whole thread does make me pause and wonder just how they will be treating words in "Red Tails". IMHO, it is important to use the derogatory words and names being thrown around at the time. It is integral to the storyline and the monumental barrier that the "boys" from Tuskegee overcame. I will be in line to watch that one as well and hope they do a good job on it! Not just some PC-ized, Hollywood Drivel!!!!!

[Mark_Pilkington]

Given the story line of the Red Tails pilots, I would expect the word, or racist treatment being portrayed, as it would seem to be an integral element of the treatment of the pilots throughout their efforts from enlisting, training, fighting and dying for their country - all while they were treated so poorly.

In that case to omitt it would be silly, as whitewashing it (poor choice of words perhaps) would to belittle and hide the historical reasons why a squadron of African American pilots existed in the first place, as against mixed squadrons.

African American viewers would expect to see it used, they may still find it offensive, but it would probably be tolerated.

Thats not a double standard, its a recognition racism is central to the story.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[Matt Gunsch]

This will prob get deleted by the moderators as not being PC, but here it goes

Use the dogs name, it is history, don't change it, If someone does not like it, let them invent a time machine, go back in time and talk to Guy Gibson and have him change the name.

A black can call another black a nigger and it is ok
A white calls a black a nigger and it is raciest.

I am fed up with all the PCBS

One of the greatest movies that will never be remade,
Blazing Saddles

[RyanShort1]

African American viewers would expect to see it used, they may still find it offensive, but it would probably be tolerated.

Thats not a double standard, its a recognition racism is central to the story.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

What's ironic is that I live in a well-integrated neighborhood and we all get along fine. There was a black neighbor kid out in front playing basketball and he was dropping the N word a bunch of times as if there was nothing wrong. I was a bit shocked, but chose not to say anything. I may be a Southern boy, but I'm not racist and personally find the use of the word disgusting, and the double standard ironic.

Ryan

Last edited by RyanShort1 on Wed May 06, 2009 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Glyn]

[quote="muddyboots"]

Oh I just cain't let it go!

Niggardly is of norse origin, not latin
Glyn, I'm 40. Hardly young any more. And if you add in the "bullet years" I'm prolly about 80...



No it is NOT of Norse origin. Their word is Nyggarde which is a corruption of the Latin for 'black'.
Niggard has been used in English meaning mean, ungenerous and unwilling to help for a very long time. Probably of French origin.
Chaucer in Troylus in 1374.
Caxton in Cato in 1483
Shakespeare in Sonnets 1600
Paine in Common Sense in 1776.

As to my age, I'm 69. I served in the RAF and the AAC as a pilot for a full uniformed career and then moved into the Intelligence services. After that I started an Antiques business in my home town. Did well enough to sell up and retire early.
I shall not continue with this thread as I feel it to be pointless and unedifying. Good day to you, sir.