Warbird Information Exchange

It looks like the mustang is an icon , kinda like the mustang car .
Im curious , what about other planes : P-40 , P38 they seem like iconic planes but dont get the glory that the mustang does . Is the Mustang "the ultimate warbird " ?

I think it probably is the ‘ultimate’ if only for the fact that it blends so many useful and/or desirable characteristics in to one compact package:

It has the WWII heritage and fabulous combat record, the performance, the looks and the sound; ie charisma! Coupled with that it has practicality (large fuel load, excellent parts support, plenty of storage provided you leave at one wing gun compartment clear).

And to cap it all you can usually share the experience with a friend as the majority of P-51’s have a second seat.

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Why do the Grumman products (hellcat, wildcat) not show up more often? Is it that they were so jealously guarded by Navy for so long they just faded away? The Hellcat seems like quite a performer - why are there so few around?

I must say, while it is a bit of a beast, the TBM is a cool ride.

Tom P.

everything in aviation is overpriced!

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As for Hellcat, they had a good combat record at the end of the war, but there don't seem to be many flying. Like the Wildcat, Bearcat, etc. it is rare to find one with a rear seat, I can only think of one Wildcat with one, and none offhand that have dual controls. So if you are flying one, it's solo and you miss the fun of sharing with a passenger/co-pilot. The big radials tend to burn lot's of fuel and leave lot's of oil residue to wipe off. They are reputed to be easy to fly as befits a carrier plane.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

good point Bill. We had Ray Thompson's Corsair come this last year and it has a "backseat" they added in. While I did not sit in it, it looks more like a sure trip to air sickness to me.

From my limited experience (TBM, T-33) it is a lot of fun to be able to share the ride.

Tom P.

When you compare the price of any warbird to other analogous "things" such as certain Shelby Cobras (as an example) the prices of these machines aren't excessive, particularly now after October 2008. in 1978 my Dad bought Bald Eagle for $140k with a spare core and maybe she's worth $1.5m now. Good investment but considering the costs to keep her alive it's not the most financially sound plan. Then when you see a baron for $1 mil or a cessna 182 for $300k maybe a mustang is a pretty good deal. jb

I think you summed it up better than anyone else. Once you take into consideration the maintenance and holding costs, the P-51 is not a great investement. On the other hand, I'd say its fun to play with. Me personally, I'm happy with passing on it and taking retirement about 30 years early. I can enjoy watching you guys play with your planes and then I can go home and fly a lesser airplane.

Mark H

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......

When I insured my hull the insurance company wanted $26k for $1.5m with a 200k deductible. YGBSM. Doing the amortized math the insurance for that period (1978 to now) alone is excessive of $600k. And the gas, parts and the psychiatrist bills caused by my main man Rich? forget it. We have these because they are cool and important.

Couldn't have said it better!

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Taylor Stevenson

Jim gives some good facts about hull insurance. If you buy it and never need it, it seems like you have thrown away a lot of money. I had hull my first year as an owner and pilot, for $17,500. I then decided that about 3 or 4 years of this would pay for a complete Merlin overhaul, so I dropped the hull coverage, put a lot of money into good maintenance and tried to fly with care and good judgement. This, and perhaps some luck, worked for a lot of years. If you don't need the hull insurance it all goes down the drain , nothing left to show for it. But if you need it and don't have it, then that is also a bad feeling. The high deductible policy like Jim has is a way some owners seem to be using now.

Before I got into warbirds, I had more money. But it is more meaningful and enjoyable this way as an owner and pilot, and I have certainly had some experiences and met some people that were memorable and out of the ordinary.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Popular and Plentiful are two entirely different topics. The reason they are popular has been discussed at length. I happen to agree with most that it is the best looking, best sounding fighter around. The reason there are more of them has not been mentioned. The Mustang was the most economical and practical fighter, available in the greatest numbers, at the time the USAF implemented the Military Assistance Plan (MAP) after World War II. Were it not for MAP, there would be as few Mustangs flying as P-40's. If one looks at the origin of the surviving P-51s, almost all of them originated overseas, from Canada, South America, Israel and Indonesia. These airplanes survived long enough for the embryonic warbird movement to have started in the US. There are only a couple dozen surviving Mustangs that were surplused from the US. The rest were scrapped or wrecked.

As for pricing, they are neither over- or underpriced. The market is very well established and clearly represents supply meeting demand. If "history" set the price, the Bristol Blenheim, having 3 Victoria Cross winners, would have to rate a price at least close to the Spitire and Mustang, wouldn't it?

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Rob C

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. “

– Michael Crichton

Too many people have told me over the years what a great investment a P-51 is and they never take into consideration the real costs of having one and REALLY taking care of it (and I don't mean flying it until overhaul or its ready to break and then dumping it)...

P-51 isn't that bad on insurance; to me $26k is a deal on insurance. When I had the AS-350 helicopter, insurance for 6 seats, $5mil smooth, and $400k hull (about half what it was worth) was $23k, required a "professional" flying it (which meant one less usable seat). Also professional had to make 1 trip to Eurocopter factory school for a week (my cost about $8k) even though he flew Aeromedical AS-350s everyday. The professional thing was interesting in that the pilot couldn't be the owner (per the insurance company) we went round and round on that one.

Then Sept 11 hit. Insurance went to $57k for $400k hull, and $1mil liab. Professional pilot had to make 2 trips to factory school a year ($16k for that) Total was $73k. I dropped the insurance. We were careful where we landed, limited passengers that were not family, I had maintained it to the limits already, and I did a LOT (like $200k) of engine work that it didn't really need to make it even more reliable. Flew it like that for 5 years no problems, no accidents and I used to take the pro when I thought I may need some help. Never hurt to have an extra pilot on board.

As a retired lawyer, I never did civil cases, I did administrative law. I didn't run the costs up on aircraft (although everyone seemed to blame me) I did make coal costs and your electric bill go up quite a bit..... Lawyers do get a bum rap......... Off the lawyer thing....

I had a great time with it, flew a lot of friends in the olden days, shared the toy with a lot of people. Now its a new Legend Cub and a nice Bell 47 which cost very little to play with. While I don't have a P-51, I also don't have to get up in the morning and go into combat with the enemy, stress level is lower, blood pressure lower, I'll live a LOT longer, and I actually have time for myself instead of working 90 hours a week.... Really, I'll bet I only saw my house in the daylight a few times a year back in the good old days, it was dark when I left in the morning and dark when I came home.

Still there are very few things in this life cooler than warbirds..... Its just a matter of where you place your priorities.

OH YEAH..... P-51s are FAR FROM OVERPRICED..... Compared to collector cars (even now, not the formerly absurdly crazy prices ) they are really a deal. (Come on a $150k for a "tribute" (replica) 1970 Hemi Cuda convertible??)

Mark H

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......

Yeah, and now the Mustang even has it's own cartoon!

http://www.asb.tv/videos/view.php?v=a888c11q&a=feature

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Owning a Mustang takes 4 elements in my opinion. It takes desire, time, talent to fly safely, and a large chunck of money. Many of us may have a couple of these elements, but only a small amount have all 4. I admire guys like Vlado, Jack Rousch, Mike Vade Bon Cour, the Fargo Crew, the Bald Eagle Crew, and a few others who really contribute to what a P-51 is today. Most of us only get to be spectators to the P-51 world, but these people are the "Doers" that keep the Mustang going. I believe America was built by "Doers" and not by "Talkers" who sit around and criticize.