Doolittle Raid B-25B Questions?

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:42 pm

This shot was taken in Minnesota at one of the places they went for mods. I forget the source.

Quality isn't that good, but I think the source probably had access to better quality for his comments. Think this aircraft (63) still has it's colored cowl ring. Also note that possibly the other aircraft (next photo) is York's #3.

Can't tell for sure about the cowl rings there, but for sure it had them in a different color previously:

And here's the ship after landing in Russia:

Note that it's squadron marking (3) survived all the way through!

I think that the aircraft number also corresponded to the squadron, but I need to dig that up as well.

Ryan

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:47 am

rwdfresno wrote:

Ken wrote:

My uneducated guess is that any colored cowl rings were overpainted and that all a/c were still the standard OD over grey, with Standard insigina and US ARMY under the wings. Looks like none of the prop tips were yellow. At the risk of starting off on a tangent - was that a mod?
None of the photos I've seen yet have yellow tips... however, when I mentioned that to the folks at the Nimitz they were quite sure that they did. I'm sticking with the preponderance of evidence I've seen - the photos.
Ken

I think the evidence does show that the squadron markings were all painted over and I thought perhaps in this process since it was likely hastily done it could account for some of the some of the gray under surfaces not appearing as promiently as it does in earlier photographs of the aircraft. It also appears that hte props were either replaced or repainted between Eglin and hornet.
I think that MOST of the squadron markings were painted over - some of them fairly crudely, but then you have to remember that the 17th BG markings were on the nose, the tail fins, and the cowlings - nothing else. So there would be no reason to spray the undersides.

My other curiocity (and strictly for curiouscity sake) is why and when they were painted. Ryan S said he thought it was at Alameda or onboard Hornet. If it was done post McClellan where the final modifcations were done that would lead me to beleive it was a last minute decision to do so. I'm also curious what those final modifications were. The fuel tank mods were done in Minniapolis. You hear much about the carbuerator modifcations that were done and some say that there was some animocity towads the Navy mechanics at Alemeda due to it being bleeived that the carb mods may have contributed to less range than expected but others say it was likley that the modifications were done at McClellan. This a good example of why I like to see as much evidence as possible since people's memories always seem to vary, especally since these stories have been told and retold over such a long period of time.
I'm not so sure it was a "last minute" decision to repaint stuff - it just wasn't very high on the priority list. They had a window of opportunity, had modifications, and lots of training to do, and some things just didn't get done - including painting out some of the 1941 pre-war War Maneuvers markings still on several of the aircraft.

Ryan

Another interesting debate is what color the Hornet's deck was! :shock:

Ryan S.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

[i]And here's the ship after landing in Russia:
Image
Note that it's squadron marking (3) survived all the way through![/i]

Interesting thread. I wanted to repost the "3" photo from above but I am digitally challenged!

If this photo is Russia...why is there another B-25B in the background beside the hanger? Were we already lend-leasing first rate mediums to the Russians in April '42?

FWIW the cowl ring in the "3" photo appears to be bare metal to me...

Nathan · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:47 am

I would have to express that the B-25's had to have the gray underside. It was USAAC standard. Indeed some of the photos looks like some of the aircraft are overall olive drab. But I think lighting is playing a huge part in obscuring the underlining gray paint. shadows with black and white photos do not play out well together.

I would say it is a fair opinion to say that during training that some of the B-25's did have colored cowlings but apearantly were repainted prior to embarking on Hornet.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:59 pm

Pathfinder wrote:

[i]And here's the ship after landing in Russia:
Image
Note that it's squadron marking (3) survived all the way through![/i]

Interesting thread. I wanted to repost the "3" photo from above but I am digitally challenged!

If this photo is Russia...why is there another B-25B in the background beside the hanger? Were we already lend-leasing first rate mediums to the Russians in April '42?

FWIW the cowl ring in the "3" photo appears to be bare metal to me...

The LAST photo is the photo taken in Russia - there's also a shot of it there from another angle. As far as the previous photo - I do not know where it was taken and that might be something to find out.

It's possible that cowl ring is bare, but I think it more likely to be a high-gloss yellow personally.

Ryan

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Ryan--

I see three (3) photos....was there supposed to be a fourth? I am familiar with the photo of the York plane sitting on a grass field but don't see that one here....

The LAST photo in the sequence above shows a mechanic in the foreground and the "3" plane as the central object and a second B-25 next to the hangar doors in the distance...

Dave

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:15 pm

Pathfinder wrote:

Ryan--

I see three (3) photos....was there supposed to be a fourth? I am familiar with the photo of the York plane sitting on a grass field but don't see that one here....

The LAST photo in the sequence above shows a mechanic in the foreground and the "3" plane as the central object and a second B-25 next to the hangar doors in the distance...

Dave

When I look at the post I see four pictures...
Just in case I'm re-uploading the picture to my Picasa account.

Ryan

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Okay--now there are four pictures...

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:37 pm

Ryan,

Where are pictures 2 and 3 noted as taken? Image 2 looks very much like NAS Alameda but I can't nail down which building it is at the momemt. I think perhaps building 9 at NAS Alameda.

Ryan

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:43 pm

rwdfresno wrote:

Ryan,

Where are pictures 2 and 3 noted as taken? Image 2 looks very much like NAS Alameda but I can't nail down which building it is at the momemt. I think perhaps building 9 at NAS Alameda.

Ryan

Pictures 1 and 2 are allegedly taken in Minnesota at the modification center. The third picture I am not sure about, but I tend to think it might be in Florida.

Ryan

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:45 pm

RyanShort1 wrote:

rwdfresno wrote:

Ryan,

Where are pictures 2 and 3 noted as taken? Image 2 looks very much like NAS Alameda but I can't nail down which building it is at the momemt. I think perhaps building 9 at NAS Alameda.

Ryan

Pictures 1 and 2 are allegedly taken in Minnesota at the modification center. The third picture I am not sure about, but I tend to think it might be in Florida.

Ryan

I have some feelers out with some aviation reasearchers in Minnesota in regards to the pictures. I'll be interested in determining exactly where those pictures were taken. I will update when I hear something back.

Ryan

Tailspin · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:59 pm

The B-25s had their fuel tanks modified by Mid-Continent airlines at MSP. If anyone in the airport Admin had access to some old pics of MC's hanger/ramp that might provide a clue.
H

b29flteng · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:23 pm

Tailspin wrote:

The B-25s had their fuel tanks modified by Mid-Continent airlines at MSP. If anyone in the airport Admin had access to some old pics of MC's hanger/ramp that might provide a clue.
H

Mid-Continent was on the north side of MSP, off of what is now the Cross-town highway(62) and 34 Ave S. Next to the Air Force Reserve base.

gary1954 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:25 pm

RyanShort1 wrote:

#4 - We know of at least one other aircraft that had artwork on the nose that doesn't have a widely-circulated "still" of it - that's from a movie capture (if you want to beat me to posting it here, do a search on the afore-mentioned forum on "Avenger")
#5 - It's obvious to me that there is still room for more research to be done regarding the circumstances of the Raid.

Ryan

AU/ACSC/5026/AY07 Air Command and Staff College, Air University, Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama
Titled: Major (Retired) Thomas C. Griffin Doolittle Raider - American Hero
by Major Jeffery T. Havnes, USAF dated April 2007
he wrote that "Tom" Griffin (Navigator) was on B-25 number 9, the "Whirling Dervish".
The hard work ethics instilled by his father paid off with him earning his degree in political science and graduating with a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1939.
January 1942 ordered to Columbia, South Carolina, via Mid-Continent Airline at Minneapolis for aircraft modifications where additioanl gas tanks were installed.
The Mitchells also received new bomb shackles and other special equipment.
With his training complete, Griffin's crew had one remaining task before departing Eglin - naming their aircraft.
Griffin and his crew had difficulty on deciding a name until one evening when he mentioned a religious dance called the Whirling Dervish.
The dance was performed by members of a Muslim religious sect predominately in Turkey and definded as:
"A mystical dancer who stands between the material and cosmic worlds. His dance is part of a sacred ceremony in which the dervish rotates in a precise rythm. He represents the earth revolving on its axis while orbiting the sun. The purpose or the ritual whirling is for the dervish to empty himself of all abstract thoughts, placing him in a trance; released from his body he conquers dizziness."

Towards the end of Tom Griffin's training, he and the Intellegence Officer Davey Jones, went to Washington, D.C. to gather charts, target information, and any other relevant information related to the mission. Doolittle placed great trust into Griffin by informing him of the mission details prior to departure from Florida."

Do we have any idea how many planes were actually named, or had nose art?? questions and information keeps coming up. great thread.

gary1954 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:43 pm

rwdfresno wrote:

I came accross some pictures of interest on the http://www.doolittleraider.com website. Most familiar to me but the first one was new to me.

Question #1 Where is this picture actually from? Thirty Seconds over Tokyo?

The image below is itneresting to me for a few reasons. The caption would lead you to believe that this is a picture that was taken on April 18, 1942 of a B-25B taking off from the USS hornet as part of the Doolittle Raid. Something about this picture just doesnt seem right to me. 1. The picture is taken form the perspective that would require the photgrapher to be beyond the bow of the Hornet. 2. The cowlings seem "weird." 3. The aircraft in the picture including those on the deck all seem to have yellow or white cowling rings.

thank youi, Ryan

According to this publication
AU/ACSC/5026/AY07 Air Command and Staff College, Air University, Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama
Titled: Major (Retired) Thomas C. Griffin Doolittle Raider - American Hero
by Major Jeffery T. Havnes, USAF dated April 2007
this photograph is foot noted as item 20 found on page 17 of this Air Force publication "Photograph. Air Force Historical Research Agency. Doolittle Raid Archievs. 18 April 1942.

I found it here
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz= ... rt=40&sa=N

https://www.afresearch.org/skins/RIMS/home.aspx

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