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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:17 pm 
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August, you should get the Most Valuable Poster award for that. :D

These F-82 threads have gotten a little bit like the coverage of Michael Jackson's death. We interrupt this thread to tell you that Michael Jackson is still dead, and the F-82 is still at the NMUSAF. In related news, Jimmy Hoffa still hasn't been found.

We can only hash over what has happened so many times. Discussing the philosophy of how and why warbirds should be displayed does nothing to change their actual fate. I wish the people were this passionate about the subjects would channel their energy into bringing their points to the organizations being discussed. Maybe change happens, maybe nothing will change, but at the very least, whomever is in charge will know where its visitors and enthusiasts stand on certain subjects. Seems to me this would be a lot more productive than arguing amongst ourselves.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:08 am 
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August, funny and creative man. You missed one thing though, the movie Memphis Belle will have Jelly beans painted on it in order to preserve accuracy.

As far as the RP-63, and actually bringing things to people's attention, I did just that. I explained to one of my contacts the deal, and they are talking about turning the P-63 already at the museum back into a stock P-63, and bringing the RP-63 to the NMUSAF. Will it happen? I don't know, but I atleast got people talking about it. That is better than nothing.
I am sorry but I disagree with saying it is OK for a museum or group to be able to paint an airplane anyway they want, but only the national Museums are held to a different standard. Do I see it as a huge deal for the H-19 to be painted as a differnet model? No. Taylor, where you are confused is it would be like an art museum having to completely restore the Mona Lisa. The Mona Lisa is a very historic painting. But what if there were only so many canvas out there, and you had to tell the story the best you could of the evalution of art? Some of the canvas have very historic paintings on them. Great, you preserve them and display them. but then you have these blank canvas as well. Remember there are only so many of them, and you must tell the story of the evalution of art from early years till today. Well then I'd bet you there would be some tribute art work in there.
If the NMUSAF would take the Swoose, and say we think we are going to paint it blue, then yes, I would be inline to throw stuff at them. But saying that putting representative schemes on some aircraft that don't have a huge history is wrong and so horrible, is just silly, especially if the aircraft is a restoration of using several large pieces of different aircraft together, or is just a rare example that has no huge history. In my eyes it is your duty to take that example and tell a story with it. To be honest if the museum wasn't a favorite target of some, this conversation wouldn't even happen.
August the museum is trying to get away from doing representative schems by going through it's collection of aircraft on loan, and if there is a key example that has history, they move it to Dayton to the main collection. There are several examples of this..."RB-47, Memphis Belle, "Haymaker" F-86, and so on. This is a process though and will take some time. Many, many years no doubt. As for the more rare airframes, they try and give it a nice accurate paint scheme for an aircraft off of the line so that a guy that flew F-84's can show his family.
Taylor, where you are getting confused is between what is right and what is allowed. If I get a combat veteran P-47, restore it, and then when time comes for a paintscheme, I say paint it purple with pink stripes rather than putting it in it's combat veteran scheme. According to you that is allowed, and you are right it is. However it isn't right. If I restore a P-47 and it has no combat history and I say, paint it purple with pink stripes. it is allowed, sure, but once again it isn't right. More people would appreciate, learn from, and veterans honored by painting the aircraft in a representative scheme.
Saying that it is OK for some, but not Ok for others is not correct. You may not like the Gen., but he is not who decides on the scheme (atleast alone). Go back earlier and read about it. Markings, even representative ones, also help tell the story and honor the men who were associated with this aircraft. Not every airplane is the Enola Gay. Some just have nothing in their history, or some were produced to late and never had any markings. Now they are one of the last airframes left.
One example no one mentioned is another night fighter. The P-61. The Museums P-61 is a P-61C representing a P-61B named "Moonlight Seranade" The museum restoration crew went and made a very accurate Top Turret for the P-61. C models did not use the turret, but the B did. So now it has a top turret and looks like a very complete B model. They also have added a ton of equipment to the P-61 and are making a new tail plexi tail cone. But it is a representative scheme. So you must not like it right. now consider this. For many years this was the ONLY P-61 on display in the US, and the only preserved example on display in the world. It is the only P-61 to carry the top turret. SO if the NMUSAF did not do that, there would be NO examples of a P-61 complete with it's turret so that would be extinct. i'd rather see a representative scheme, than something go away completely.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:14 am 
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k5083 wrote:
Although other museums sometimes select representative paint schemes, the NMUSAF paints aircraft as the incorrect version and sometimes even modifies them into replicas of another version much more often than any other major government-affiliated museum. Also, the trend in major museums is away from tarting up aircraft to represent other examples/types/variants, everywhere except Dayton.

Rreis's thoughtful post is on target as to the reason why. The NMUSAF's goals include homage and furnishing emotional experiences for veterans. However, Rreis's point does not completely explain the NMUSAF's practices. Other military-run museums share the goals of honoring vets and making them cry. The RAFM is situated identically to the NMUSAF, yet its last surviving Typhoon, seen by Typhoon vets every day, wears its own original, generic, non-operational markings. This would not happen at NMUSAF. So there is a difference in approach.

Two further things explain the difference. First, the NMUSAF takes a literal-minded approach to its homage/emotional mission, apparently thinking that vets and war dead somehow are not adequately honored if the plane is not dressed up as a combat machine.

Second, the honoring/emotional aspect of the NMUSAF's mission takes precedence over its historical preservation mission, and wins out when the two are perceived to be in conflict, to a greater degree than in other museums.

August



August every single statement in this can also be used to talk about other museums, and private owners.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:11 am 
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me109me109 wrote:
mustangdriver wrote:
Taylor "the authenticity nut", wait until Texas finds out that you gave out the secret to how the paint scheme was decided upon for the P-40.

"they can paint them pink, turquoise, or paint a T-6 like a B-52."





The only thing I can think of is you're rehashing the debate over the CAF paint scheme and its origins. That's only fair as I rehash the several things wrong with the NMUSAF from time to time.

The CAF P-40 was painted the way it is from personal paint chips chosen by Tex. This is a representative aircraft of Tex Hill, and was never meant to be an accurate representation of the AVG as a whole. Hence the various design features from different periods of Tex's service. It has been brought to light, as you well know that the colors aren't considered to be original to an AVG P-40. That's fine and well, but this aircraft is a tribute to Tex and therefore his design wishes and recommendations were priority.

Hypothetical here... If this aircraft belonged to the NMUSAF I would expect them to paint it as an N model aircraft. They are, and should be, held to a different standard than the CAF or other privately funded organizations/collections. Had the sponsors of our N-model (myself and my father included) not been great friends with Tex and not wanted to keep the airplane as a tribute to his service (the the US and CAF alike), a different scheme could have been chosen. A good second choice scheme would be for our N to wear the scheme it wore in combat in the Aleutians. It served as a Kittyhawk with the RCAF during WWII.

Another point is that a sponsor was willing to put up a LOT of money for the restoration of the P-40N, therefore he can paint the aircraft in whatever scheme he so chooses (after approval by the Maintenance Committee of the GS). It's only fair. On a similar note, the NMUSAF should not be able to pick a paint scheme that doesn't accurately represent the aircraft that wears it. The scheme is not up to the Gen at the top of the food chain, or the volunteers, it is up to the history of the aircraft itself. Your goal is to accurately portray the history of the Air Forces of the US and to preserve the artifacts in their original state. Your museum is not filled with aircraft, it is filled with artifacts. You wouldn’t expect the white house to restore a painting of George Washington as a painting of Thomas Jefferson now would you? You do the American people a disservice by portraying an artifact as something it is not. That is not preserving history that is altering history. Painting a P-51H as a WWII combat vet is inexcusable. Restoring a particular aircraft in a configuration that it never had (P-82B) is inexcusable. Painting a privately owned Mustang as a bag of jelly beans is excusable. Two different standards to which the entities are held.

Don't get me wrong, I believe everyone should restore their warbird to stock original. You just have to look at my L-5 to see how I think every aircraft should be done. However, non-government owned aircraft and collections have a excuse-by-ownership not to restore their aircraft accurately. The NMUSAF does NOT.



Taylor, you know I have nothing but respect for you and the CAF. When we talk about this stuff it is not a personal attack, just trying to expand on one another's knowledge. So I hope that you completely understand that I give credit to the CAF for starting t he warbird trend, and am thrilled to see a CAF aircraft on display. As far as the P-40 scheme, I was for it until I saw the pics of it out in the light. I even stuck up for you and the CAF when it came down to picking an AVG scheme. I think it only makes sense to have it in an AVG scheme being that you guys had a great relationship with Tex Hill. Something that most of us would have loved to of had. here is the thread about the paint.

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.o ... 3&start=30

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:40 am 
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Chris, I'm glad you liked my little press release.

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August every single statement in this can also be used to talk about other museums, and private owners.


Not really.

If you were to walk through the NASM, RAFM, IWM, Le Bourget, Brussels, Vigna di Valle, the govt collections down under, and maybe even Pensacola, and tally up the planes from the WW2-Korea era, I'm confident you would find that each of the other museums, compared to NMUSAF, has (1) a much higher % of aircraft displayed in their true identities, (2) where false paint schemes are used, a much smaller % representing a different variant, and (3) almost no instances of an aircraft being converted to resemble a different variant or type. One could probably do the compilation just using the museums' web sites, but I don't know if I have that much time on my hands.

I am not interested in comparing museums to private owners. Many private owners, including some that call themselves museums, simply do not respect their aircraft as historic artifacts, even if they say they do. It's that simple. It's too bad, but there it is. How can you hold them to a standard which they themselves do not follow? Only a few aspire to real museum standards. One is the Flying Heritage Collection which, out of 13 WW2 aircraft listed on its site, has at least 4 (possibly 6 or 7) in their original markings, none marked as in incorrect variant, and only 1 (the Zero) in the process of conversion to an incorrect variant.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:50 am 
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I won't argue that the FHC is awesome. The press release was great!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:53 am 
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Also, even I have to laugh at the USAF Heritage Award going to the NMUSAF. Good job! :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:58 am 
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mustangdriver wrote:
. The Museums P-61 is a P-61C representing a P-61B named "Moonlight Seranade" The museum restoration crew went and made a very accurate Top Turret for the P-61. C models did not use the turret, but the B did.



ALERT...ALERT... This is NOT an attack on Chris, the NMUSAF, Gen. Metcalf, or Michael O'Leary.

But is this statement accurate? I do not know, but was curious and discovered some vintage pics of what appear to be C's with a turret mounted.

http://www.portierramaryaire.com/imagenes/p61c.jpg

http://www.greendyk.nl/WWII-fighters/PL ... p162-1.jpg


Will the resident Northrop expert please step to the microphone. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:26 am 
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Interesting I was under the impression that late B models and all C models never carried the turret. Although I am not sure that first pic is a true C model. Also there were tests with different configurations of the turret including using a two gun system.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Chris you and I just have a fundamental disagreement in regards to public v. private warbird ownerships and the standards that are (or should be) forcefully held on the former, and optionally on the later. The first has no excuse for innacuracy, the second can make excuses. This is coming from the guy that doesn't have to make excuses with his L-5 (stock orig), but does with his T-6 (a 'G' painted in pre-war marking)...I wish I didn't have to make any. Everyone should strive to get their aircraft as close to original as possible. Period.

I'm done w this topic though, we'll just keep disagreeing about the same things.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:40 pm 
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August, that was great! The Onion would be proud. :lol:

Ok, so if the Museum were to display it correctly, despite the model nomenclature, it's a P-82B, not an F-82, right? Or am I mistaken?

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