USS Lexington (CV-2) wreck found .. 4 March 2018 [revised]

[Garth]

Those four also took part in the attack on Shōkaku...

[Dan Jones]

I’m seeing four TBDs in the pics. T4, T5, T8 and T9.

ALL took part in the attack on Shoho. T4 and T9 scored confirmed hits ...

I thought 5 & 8 were the same plane, the way the tails are snapped off. Are there pics of the other three TBD’s yet?

Last edited by Dan Jones on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jerry O'Neill]

Totally awesome find and images!
That said, the Navy will never spend the money to recover any of these aircraft. The only way that any will see the light of day again is if someone, like Paul Allen, is willing to fork over the expense to recover several so that the Navy can pick the most historic airframes and then grant them salvage rights to a select few the others. It's pretty far down and those aircraft are FRAGILE.
BTW, I believe Paul Allen is involved the recovery of the C-2 lost last year.
My two cents.
Jerry

[Warbird Kid]

BTW, I believe Paul Allen is involved the recovery of the C-2 lost last year.

Perhaps that will sway the Navy for Mr. Allen to recover those oh so very historic aircraft!

[Russ Matthews]

VF-3 was on board the Lex for Coral Sea, and Felix was their squadron emblem, seen clearly on the forward fuselage. The number appears to be F-5, meaning this plane would have been flow by Ensign Dale W. Peterson during that fateful period. "(The First Team", Lundstrom, p. 107)

Butch O'Hare and Dale Peterson were indeed embarked with VF-3 aboard Lexington for that fateful Medal of Honor fight off Bougainville on 20 Feb 1942. However, Fighting Squadron Two returned to the ship on 26 March ["The First Team," Lundstrom, p. 163] and served through the Coral Sea battle.

As if that weren't confusing enough, apparently Peterson was reassigned to VF-2 and so he himself actually was present. But, he was tragically shot down and killed while flying escort for VT-2 during the Shōkaku strike of 8 May .. hundreds of miles from where Lady Lex went down [Lundstrom, p. 239]. And in any case, he was never credited with more than 1.5 kills [Lundstrom, p. 495]

I think we're still looking for who flew white F-5 with VF-2. Or perhaps we need to determine if VF-3 left their aircraft behind when they disembarked in March (and who in the squadron was credited with 4 kills at that time). It's a mystery, but then this is the group that can unravel it.

[Russ Matthews]

The condition of that Wildcat and those TBDs is just stunning!

I'm equally gob-smacked. It's almost like travelling back in time. The most astonishing thing to me is that the doped fabric covering has survived! (for example, the red and white striped rudders still clearly visible). Yet somehow the ferrous metal (like the engines) has not fared nearly as well. Here's hoping we see many more photos in the coming weeks. With all this glorious full color detail, the scale modelers out there must be practically losing their minds!

[Dan Jones]

I would bet that at that depth and with the relative lack of free oxygen the airplanes are relatively structurally sound and could be raised. They’re far enough away to not be part of the Lexington grave site per se, and their raising could be considered a valuable recovery/training exercise. Certainly Mr Allen would have to throw down for the majority of the immediate expenses but I think this could be negotiated to the benefit of everyone. I’m optimistically holding my breath. How cool would it be to see a Coral Sea combat vet TBD in Pensacola and another one flying with the FHC?

[Mark Allen M]

T-3 flown by Ensign N. A. Sterrie USNR who claimed a hit during second attack. T-4 flown by Lt. R. F. Farrington USN who claimed a hit during first attack. T-5 flown by Ensign T. B. Bash USNR who claimed a hit during second attack. VF-3, which operated from Lexington early in the war, transferred some of its aircraft to VF-2 prior to the Battle of the Coral Sea. The airplane pictured was one of them. Changing the squadron markings was not a priority.

Looks like some facebook guys are digging up some answers.
https://www.history.navy.mil/research/h ... /1942.html

[Matt Poole]

[EDIT: Graham Cutting posted on the WIX Facebook thread that “Navy pilots weren't allocated a particular aeroplane so the pictures of Jimmy thatch & Butch O' Hare flying their F4Fs with their kill markings is just for the press.” Thus, for all I know, Butch O’Hare did pilot Wildcat White F-5 on occasion, though it has been written that he scored all of his kills in White F-15.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It has already been posted elsewhere that Butch O’Hare’s Wildcat on Feb 20, 1942 was White F-15 – not the White F-5 seen underwater. Also, we know that O’Hare was credited with five kills in a day (Feb 20, 1942), and the underwater wreck only shows four kill flags. The underwater wreck clearly is not O’Hare’s aircraft from Feb 20.

On the WIX Facebook site I offered another perspective – a cockpit-area comparison between the LIFE magazine photo of Butch O’Hare posing in the the Wildcat bearing five kill flags versus the Wildcat filmed underwater.

I'm too lazy/challenged to figure out how to post a photo here, so if someone else cares to copy it from the WIX Facebook page and add it to this forum, go right ahead. Seeing that comparison image is needed to make sense of some of the following. You will find it, after some digging, here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/wixhq/? ... CpYR98VVEs

On the wartime photo of O’Hare’s Wildcat, the diagonal line coincident with an edge of the top-hinged access panel forward of the pilot passes through the top Japanese kill flag. Likewise, a similar diagonal line coincident with the corresponding edge of the access panel on the underwater wreck also passes through the top painted flag.

Now, count the flags down from that top flag in both images. There are only four in the underwater wreck (stated already). Again, O’Hare’s Wildcat clearly shows five. There is no room for a fifth flag to have been painted above the top flag on the underwater wreck.

Furthermore, look at the position of VF-3's Felix the Cat insignia in each image. In the underwater image, the bottom of the circle is almost tangent with that same diagonal access panel edge. In the wartime O’Hare photo there is a clear gap between the diagonal edge and the bottom of the circle.

Different aircraft.

Mark Allen M has offered this:

“VF-3 was on board the Lex for Coral Sea, and Felix was their squadron emblem, seen clearly on the forward fuselage. The number [on the underwater wreck] appears to be F-5, meaning this plane would have been flown by Ensign Dale W. Peterson during that fateful period.”

His source is “The First Team” by Lundstrom, pg 107.

Jack Cook, on the Facebook thread, also ID’d Dale Peterson and quoted from Peterson's Navy Cross citation. Peterson was reassigned to VF-2 and was shot down and killed on May 8. According to TBDude, above, the location was hundreds of miles from where the Lexington went down. Peterson was only credited with 1.5 kills.

I can’t see a stenciled name under the cockpit, similar in position to the name on O’Hare’s Wildcat.

My guess is that Peterson was just one of the pilots who scored kills in White F-5.

Last edited by Matt Poole on Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Dan K]

I would bet that at that depth and with the relative lack of free oxygen the airplanes are relatively structurally sound and could be raised. They’re far enough away to not be part of the Lexington grave site per se, and their raising could be considered a valuable recovery/training exercise. Certainly Mr Allen would have to throw down for the majority of the immediate expenses but I think this could be negotiated to the benefit of everyone. I’m optimistically holding my breath. How cool would it be to see a Coral Sea combat vet TBD in Pensacola and another one flying with the FHC?

The LAST thing desired is having the Navy treat this as a recovery/training exercise. Their last attempt at such an endeavor resulted in the Lake Washington PBM having its tail torn off and the rest being "preserved in situ". No, I'm hopeful the Navy has learned its lesson on recovery: Leave it to the experts (aka "Taras"!)

And as much as I would like to believe that their restoration protocol has improved, the Navy's track record with multiple wrecks has been to cannibalize the many to create one (or, at best, a few) static displays...then scrap what was left. Personally, I would be very concerned over multiple aircraft being recovered.

[Dan Jones]

I would bet that at that depth and with the relative lack of free oxygen the airplanes are relatively structurally sound and could be raised. They’re far enough away to not be part of the Lexington grave site per se, and their raising could be considered a valuable recovery/training exercise. Certainly Mr Allen would have to throw down for the majority of the immediate expenses but I think this could be negotiated to the benefit of everyone. I’m optimistically holding my breath. How cool would it be to see a Coral Sea combat vet TBD in Pensacola and another one flying with the FHC?

The LAST thing desired is having the Navy treat this as a recovery/training exercise. Their last attempt at such an endeavor resulted in the Lake Washington PBM having its tail torn off and the rest being "preserved in situ". No, I'm hopeful the Navy has learned its lesson on recovery: Leave it to the experts (aka "Taras"!)

And as much as I would like to believe that their restoration protocol has improved, the Navy's track record with multiple wrecks has been to cannibalize the many to create one (or, at best, a few) static displays...then scrap what was left. Personally, I would be very concerned over multiple aircraft being recovered.

Some years ago though, the Navy did successfully recover an F6F off the coast of California from very deep water and made a good job of it.

[Jerry O'Neill]

Some years ago though, the Navy did successfully recover an F6F off the coast of California from very deep water and made a good job of it.

Yes, but years later, and after the PBM debacle, they mucked up the F3F that MOH awardee Galer flew. Had to be totally rebuilt after the Navy crunched the intact wings.

[Dan Jones]

Some years ago though, the Navy did successfully recover an F6F off the coast of California from very deep water and made a good job of it.

Yes, but years later, and after the PBM debacle, they mucked up the F3F that MOH awardee Galer flew. Had to be totally rebuilt after the Navy crunched the intact wings.

I thought it was a passing fishing net that took credit for that?

[Firebird]

F-13 had four kill flags as well at some point, as it can be seen in that film clip of Thach and O'Hare flying F-1 and F-13.

[Courier Sportster]

This is TOO cool. There's lots of ways to honor. I'm all for leaving a war grave 99.9% undisturbed but get those planes up here! Felix, even kill markings. THE 1942 time-capsule, when the war was still really a jump-ball. Is that sloping section with the hatch door and the stairs, is that the very front tip of the flight deck? I can't figure out what else would have that slope. It's neat being right here as history unfolds.