Warbird Information Exchange

Makes you wonder that if the foundation is putting this type of money into the b-17, then I’m guessing they are doing it with the purpose to keep flying with passengers in time. I do really hope they are able to get their ticket back and continue their mission

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

John,
I was there last Tuesday 9/8 and one of the guys working on it did confirm that it was the former Chris Kirchner P-40...
Mike

CF has publically stated that they intend on continuing to fly passengers in this B-17 as well as the rest of the normal CF aircraft. Unfortunately, there are several huge challenges that have to be overcome first:

1) Nothing can happen until the final NTSB report on the B-17 crash comes out. Based on public press statements, the NTSB has stated that it will release the final report sometime within 12-18 months from the accident date. That would put the final release sometime between Oct 2020 and Apr 2021.

2) The FAA won't do anything or allow the Collings Foundation to continue to fly with paying passengers until the final NTSB report is released. Once the final report comes out, the FAA will determine which course of action it wants to pursue in regards to action taken against them and if or whether they will allow them to fly with paying passengers again at some point in the future.

3) There have been several lawsuits filed against the CF from the estates of the deceased in the crash. CF is on the hook for potentially tens of millions of dollars in liability if they lose the lawsuits. Those lawsuits could take years to resolve. Resolution of those lawsuits may or may not be in the decision making process from the CF leadership as to whether they want to continue the tour or not and/or the timing of it.

4) When it rains, it pours. The FAA is going after the CF with a vengeance. The crash, unfortunately, has opened up a "pandora's box" with regard to the FAA drilling into Collings and finding every single violation they can outside of the crash. There are several other potential violations, not including the crash, that are being investigated by the FAA. All of them have to do with the potential legality of whether Collings was authorized to give rides and/or flight instruction in their aircraft or not. As is typical with FAA investigations after perceived violations/illegalities, the FAA won't cease their efforts to drill long, hard and deep into every aspect of their operation until they can hang them on everything they can find. Unfortunately, I think this is just the beginning. I believe the FAA's attempt here will generate more potential violations in the future.

5) In addition to all of this, the FAA is going after people/organizations associated with Collings and/or using the same business model as them. Thom Richard is one example. The FAA has shut down his P-40 flying school at Warbird Adventures and gone after him as well. Thom's whole P-40 business is at risk of being shut down permanently. The FAA has also attempted to revoke Thom's FAA licenses, unfortunately.

6) Even if the FAA gives the CF the green light to reapply for their revoked Exemption to once again take up passengers, the process is not a quick one and will probably necessitate the CF to completely rebuild their entire flight operations program from scratch. It is my opinion that the FAA will not allow CF to simply make a few corrections and continue from their present flight operations program. My viewpoint on this stems from other organizations that have gone through similar processes with the FAA that have involved deaths. The bottom line - all of this takes time and will not happen quickly.

So, based on the uncertainty of all the above, it is my opinion that the Collings Foundation will not tour again any time soon.

Will the FAA allow the CF to tour again? That is the 10 million dollar question. I think the FAA could allow them to, but it will be a long, hard, uphill struggle for them to gain the confidence of the FAA again. If that is the case, I don't think it will happen quickly, imo.

Based on having watched similar occurrences happen in the past with other organizations, it is my best guess that Collings could potentially tour again with paying passengers, but it will probably take several years, if not longer, for that to occur.

I have no inside information and everything stated above is available in the public realm if one knows where to look.

So, I wish the CF the best, and hope they can whether this storm and eventually fly again on tour. It is in everyone's best interest to support Collings and I hope they can recover from this setback and come back on the other side as a better, stronger, safer organization that can continue its important mission.

The CF are currently in the "eye of the hurricane" and the "backside" of the storm could hit them with fury again once the final NTSB report comes out in the near future. It is my opinion also, that the NTSB final report will set the tone for all subsequent actions on everyone's behalf - Collings, FAA, warbird industry, etc, all included. This will determine how things will proceed from that point forward for everyone. The repercussions from that final NTSB report - good or bad - will generate ripple effects throughout the entire warbird industry for decades to come.

All of this is my opinion as an outsider and casual observer. I could be completely wrong and maybe the CF will overcome all of this in short order and tour again soon. For their sake, I hope my above analysis is wrong.

I think it’s safe to say we think we know something about this but in all honesty we probably know nothing. The news comes out and says there was no seatbelts in the b-17,( incorrect,) they stated there’s no safety briefing that takes place,( incorrect.) we truly don’t know if there was a mechanical failure that no matter what was going to happen. Look at Boeing with that computer software, how many did that kill? Boeing is still going. I don’t what weight it carries but some of those aircraft are in the collings kids names, not the collings foundation itself. What that means who knows?

I’m sure many of these lawsuits will be settled out of out of court. I also wonder what liability insurance will cover for this.

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

Yes, I agree with all of that - we simply don't know and it is too early to tell. I just wanted to give you my take on everything - so take it for what it's worth.

Thank you Mike! Also, Mike, thank you too for the photos you shared from American Aero.

I have read the over the past decade, the FAA has hired thousands of inspectors...who get kudos and promotions for being vigilant/aggressive, so I expect a lot more scrutiny from that sector.

A former well known C.F. pilot told me they were always under intense FAA scrutiny. He left the group because he disagreed with some of their safety policies. Note...he didn't call them unsafe or bad mouth them to me, he just said he had a professional disagreement with them.
Ask any airline pilot, they'll likely say the same thing.

I always assumed C.F. had some political clout to get the F-4 and fly it.
They'll need all the top cover in Washington they can get.
If the NTSB report complains about a lack of program oversight, expect a huge FAA clampdown....possibly enough to make continued passenger flights/tours impractical. My guess...if flying in warbirds is on your bucket list, do it sooner rather than later.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

Please post more photos of the restoration of the b-17 as time permits.

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

Yes, the above in red is true. Unfortunately, the FAA, just like any big, governmental organization is very "political". The motives of some in that organization are not necessarily in the best interest of the FAA and/or the general public. This accounts for some of their seemingly perplexing decisions as of late.

Another problem is that there is a new generation of FAA inspectors out in the field. Most of these personnel have very little knowledge and/or experience with anything other than light General Aviation aircraft. The vast majority of the warbird "corporate knowledge" within the FAA is almost completely non-existent. What that means is the unique operating conditions, constraints and characteristics of warbirds are completely unknown to the vast majority of inspectors. They only know what they were taught in FAA school, which teaches them how to deal with Cessna 150's and twin engine Pipers. They incorrectly apply that to warbird operations and often times they are in complete conflict. Hence, some of the discussions we are having now is a direct result of that.

Yes, CF has political clout. Remember, it took Congressional involvement to get the F-4. If it weren't for the actions of that Congressman, it would have never happened.

I agree that if you've ever wanted to ride in a warbird to do it now or in the near future. Who knows if or when the FAA will shut all of this down.

My favorite example of how increased FAA vigilance keeps us safe...
At the local field there are 10-12 Stearmans in military colors.
Several are in yellow USN markings, as such they correctly have their designation painted in 2-3" letters/ numbers on their rudders.

A local FAA guy took exception to the "N2S-3" on them....saying that regulations prohibits anything that might be misinterpreted as an "N number". So he made them add a letter in front of the "N"....so many now sport a designation like "VN2S-3".

Who knows how many lives have been saved by his action?

BTW: adding a "V" prefix is incorrect for that period of Navy aircraft. If the Stearman owners added it to denote staff/VIP use, it's only correct for USAF or USN post-1962 practice. They should have added something like an "O" to make the Stearman "ON2S"... an Observation Trainer or "SN2S" as a Scout Trainer.

If I owned the airplane, I would have used a stick on letter...which would have blown off on my next flight. Remember, the FAA is the same outfit that tried to ground Bob Hoover.

I'm all for safety and see the need for regulations, but sometimes I think the authorities just like messing' with us.
Mickey Mouse policies behind in Disneyland, not the real world.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

Yep, government employees can really get a Napoleon complex. Seen it many times.

I'm as staunch supporter of Collings as you're ever going to find, and I've flown with them several times in the 90s when I still lived in Florida, but I never once got any safety briefing whatsoever on any of those flights, nor saw anyone else getting one.
I saw them a few years ago at a stop in WA state and none of the paying riders got a brief there, either. I heard a couple of them mention that fact as they climbed aboard.
Now, did they get one before 909s last ill-fated flight as this was after the last times I saw 909? I would bet that they did as the last couple of times I saw CF, they were giving briefs before everyone got on board. But I wouldn't bet my life that every person who flew on her in the last couple of years got a safety brief.

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Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

I have flown 18 city to city flights in all the aircraft with the last one in the mustang flying into bradley. My friend,( who is a corporate sponsor,) has over 35 city to city flights. On every flight we have taken there has been a safety briefing. We have flown the north east tours from Maine all the way down to Pennsylvania. I cannot speak of other parts of America or those volunteers but up here ive always been briefed to the point I could memorize it

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

I flew with them on the B-17 and the B-25 back in 2007 and got a safety briefing for both.....I even have a photo taken of me in the B-25 safety briefing, taken by my mate.

During my time, safety briefings were mandatory no matter if it was a local flight or a between city flight. I’m sure it didn’t change. There is a lot of excitement and build up to a flight we always understood a lot of it would go in one ear and out the other so the key elements of the flight were re-iterated a few times. One thing at always befuddled me was people would pay their money, get their sticker and told when the briefing would happen. Spent a lot of time looking for people in airport restaurants, commodes, FBOs, cars...we even got a megaphone to help this along.

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www.spiritof44.com

Hi Jim, I’ve flown with you a couple times although I probably was on the 17. I’m sure you remember my good friend Julian from ct before you stopped touring. I think you were making some leather patches now for flight jackets if I remember correctly?

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" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."