Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:21 pm
Peter,
I've seen the footage of the ball turret firing the twin .50 cals like you mentioned. I've also been in contact with Taigh a few times in the past regarding spare ball turret parts. He was fortunate enough to find a complete NOS ball turret somewhere in CA which is now located in the aerial gunnery museum. I recently contacted him about a ball turret mold which was used to make fiberglass replicas. I was curious to see if it could also be used to make a cast for an aluminum recasting. The ball turret shell pieces are non-existant and I've faced the fact that I'll probably have to have a recasting made (the folks working on the "Desert Rat" are in the same boat). The problem is trying to find somebody with an original ball turret that's willing to have it disassembled for molds to be made. I know Harland Avezzie had a couple made in the past...but unfortunately the sand castings no longer exist. If anybody out there knows how to get molds please let me know!
John
I've seen the footage of the ball turret firing the twin .50 cals like you mentioned. I've also been in contact with Taigh a few times in the past regarding spare ball turret parts. He was fortunate enough to find a complete NOS ball turret somewhere in CA which is now located in the aerial gunnery museum. I recently contacted him about a ball turret mold which was used to make fiberglass replicas. I was curious to see if it could also be used to make a cast for an aluminum recasting. The ball turret shell pieces are non-existant and I've faced the fact that I'll probably have to have a recasting made (the folks working on the "Desert Rat" are in the same boat). The problem is trying to find somebody with an original ball turret that's willing to have it disassembled for molds to be made. I know Harland Avezzie had a couple made in the past...but unfortunately the sand castings no longer exist. If anybody out there knows how to get molds please let me know!
John
Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:24 pm
John, hypothetically couldn't you also use one of the plexiglass copies to make your own sand casts for pouring aluminum?
Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:42 am
Dan,
I would think that you could...the hard part is just finding one to copy.
John
I would think that you could...the hard part is just finding one to copy.
John
Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:02 am
I visited the CAF Dixie Wing at Peachtree GA back in 2004 ~ they had a ball turret mounted in a frame on a road trailer
The plan they had was ( I think ) to take it out to events and get people to pay to have their pictures taken
I dont even know if they still have it ~ and its quite a distance away from you ~ but maybe worth talking to them ?
Good hunting to you ~ I hope you get lucky with your search !
The plan they had was ( I think ) to take it out to events and get people to pay to have their pictures taken
I dont even know if they still have it ~ and its quite a distance away from you ~ but maybe worth talking to them ?
Good hunting to you ~ I hope you get lucky with your search !
Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:52 pm
john just a thought here but what about possibly approaching someone like the planes of fame museum who have a ball turret in the lilly? the turret is going to have to be removed during the restoration process anyway maybe a deal could be struck to use it as a mould in exchange for restoration services and whatnot. apparently they are always in need of help with their plane maybe you could help eachother?? just a thought. cheers sim.
Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:13 pm
Anyone think about contacting the EAA in Oshkosh? Last time I was there they had one on the floor next to the B25. Looked original to me. Maybe they could help!!!
Just a thought out loud!
David
Just a thought out loud!
David
Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:17 pm
Those are both good ideas. The thought had crossed my mind about the turret at the EAA museum (especially due to it's location). I asked one of the guys working there and they said it is original and was apparently donated by some widow after her husband died (he had originally restored it).
Looks like I may have to make some calls!
Thanks again guys!
John
Looks like I may have to make some calls!
Thanks again guys!
John
Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:02 pm
John, in reference to Groundpounder's suggestion about a trade, maybe
you could sweeten the pot by offering the donor a copy of the molds. As
you guys have mentioned, there are an increasing shortage of turrets. It
would be a possible source of income if the museum fabricated copies
as the need arises. Sounds like win-win for both parties.
you could sweeten the pot by offering the donor a copy of the molds. As
you guys have mentioned, there are an increasing shortage of turrets. It
would be a possible source of income if the museum fabricated copies
as the need arises. Sounds like win-win for both parties.
Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:02 am
getting back to an earlier posting regarding the turrets on 909, i just got back from boeing field where 909 and witchcraft were this weekend. wayne, the mechanic and engineer on 909, was very friendly and informative when i asked him specifically about the turrets on this plane. he says that yes they both could be made to work if they were hooked up. they are both complete and intact as far as the rotational equipment goes. the problem seems to be liability. no-one can ride in them anyway so what would be the point of hooking them up for paying customers? that said, the collings foundation planes are both in excellent condition all around and we couldnt have asked for a better day to be flying over seattle!! ill try again to post some pics, although as im sure you know it didnt work out to well the last time. cheers sim.
Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:02 am
getting back to an earlier posting regarding the turrets on 909, i just got back from boeing field where 909 and witchcraft were this weekend. wayne, the mechanic and engineer on 909, was very friendly and informative when i asked him specifically about the turrets on this plane. he says that yes they both could be made to work if they were hooked up. they are both complete and intact as far as the rotational equipment goes. the problem seems to be liability. no-one can ride in them anyway so what would be the point of hooking them up for paying customers? that said, the collings foundation planes are both in excellent condition all around and we couldnt have asked for a better day to be flying over seattle!! ill try again to post some pics, although as im sure you know it didnt work out to well the last time. cheers sim.
Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:25 am
I remember reading a short online article about some of the crew members taking turns climbing into the ball turret while flying to scheduled airshows. Evidently they would hope into the ball turret and crank the ball around to check out the awesome view. I guess the turret didn't have power and they were forced to use the elevation and azimuth hand cranks. I'm not sure which particular aircraft this was...possibly the 909. I doubt it was the Collings B-24 since I doubt the retraction mechanism is hooked-up and in working order. Either way it was a neat little article describing what it was like to fly in the ball turret. If I find it I'll try to post it.
John
John
Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:12 am
john i took a good look at the b 24 turret when i was there and it does indeed seem to all be there! i think what they have done though ,and im not sure if its an original system, is used a hand crank and cable arrangement to raise and lower the turret. ive got some pics of it and if i can ever ger them on here..................... sim.
Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:36 pm
THe Vintage Flying Museum ( home of Chuckie ) has a ball turret mounted on a frame...
You can see it in this picture under the B-17 wing and in front of the T-33
You can see it in this picture under the B-17 wing and in front of the T-33
Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:22 pm
The B-24 turret can be either hydraulically lowered, or hand cranked via the cables mentioned. This is an original, functioning, and complete turret right down to the back cushion attached to the door. The turret on 909 is complete and we do get in there when opportunity arrises. It is a most disconcerting feeling stepping down into the turret looking straight down at the ground. Once you duck down and get the hatch closed and latched you dissengage a clutch that allows the turret to function via the handcranks. We don't allow people in there because it takes quite a bit of time and briefing to safely operate the turret. Not to mention closterfobia and dissorientation. The first time I got in the thing and shut the hatch I released the clutch without hanging on to the crank....the turret spun horizontal and banged quite hard against the stop...once my heart started beating again and I realized I wasn't cannonballing into the ocean it was quite spectacular. I have the utmost respect for the men that went to combat in this position. That said, I am 6' tall and it is one of the most comfortable places to ride on the airplane. It is not overly noisy and the view is tremendous. The biggest challenge is maintaining orientation to the aircraft. With our new windows it is not that difficult but it takes quite a few cranks to position the turret for proper exit.
Jim Harley
Jim Harley
Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:13 pm
The first ball turret gunner combat veteran I ever spoke with years ago was approximately 6' tall, which pretty much busted the "short ball turret gunner" theory for me.
He related to me that he had trained as a B17 tail gunner. At some point after his crew finished their crew training stateside and got their orders to go overseas, their ball turret gunner decided he wanted o-u-t of the ball turret, convinced he would not survive his combat tour manning the ball turret. Nothing the crew could say would change the ball turret gunner's mind and they all wanted to maintain "crew integrity" having just completed their crew training. This tail gunner (can't find notes, so sorry, no name) convinced the ball turret gunner to swap places with him and they finished their combat tour with an intact crew.
Interestingly, IIRC (info probably somehwere in Geoffrey Perrets' "Winged Victory"), in the 8th AF the tail gun position had a higher casualty rate than the ball turret gunner position.
Personally, I can only begin to imagine a very little of what it must have been like to go to war in any ball turret. Something about being in something close to a fetal position and looking through your legs at people trying to kill you as you spin around in a claustraphobic little sphere and try to kill them first...
God Bless Them and it is a good time of year to thank them.
He related to me that he had trained as a B17 tail gunner. At some point after his crew finished their crew training stateside and got their orders to go overseas, their ball turret gunner decided he wanted o-u-t of the ball turret, convinced he would not survive his combat tour manning the ball turret. Nothing the crew could say would change the ball turret gunner's mind and they all wanted to maintain "crew integrity" having just completed their crew training. This tail gunner (can't find notes, so sorry, no name) convinced the ball turret gunner to swap places with him and they finished their combat tour with an intact crew.
Interestingly, IIRC (info probably somehwere in Geoffrey Perrets' "Winged Victory"), in the 8th AF the tail gun position had a higher casualty rate than the ball turret gunner position.
Personally, I can only begin to imagine a very little of what it must have been like to go to war in any ball turret. Something about being in something close to a fetal position and looking through your legs at people trying to kill you as you spin around in a claustraphobic little sphere and try to kill them first...
God Bless Them and it is a good time of year to thank them.