Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:39 am
Hi engguy!
Getting a little back to the point here, You said,
What would that be?
Are you trying to determine if doing this is profitable? Whatever it might be? Building parts, engines, whatever....
I have read all of the posts, and..., I'm still waiting for the answer....
Talking about the "shoddy" workmanship of these modern times, is nothing. Cat's were saying the same thing in 1932, and all of our kids will be saying the same thing in 2048, wishing that 2007 workmanship standards and ideals were here.
Sooooo,,,
Whats the plan stan? Inquiring minds want to know.....
Getting a little back to the point here, You said,
"So I'm trying to offer a more inexpensive alternative to these costly overhauls."
What would that be?
Are you trying to determine if doing this is profitable? Whatever it might be? Building parts, engines, whatever....
I have read all of the posts, and..., I'm still waiting for the answer....
Talking about the "shoddy" workmanship of these modern times, is nothing. Cat's were saying the same thing in 1932, and all of our kids will be saying the same thing in 2048, wishing that 2007 workmanship standards and ideals were here.
Sooooo,,,
Whats the plan stan? Inquiring minds want to know.....
Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:13 pm
O.P. just go to my dec 13 06 post. Guys like me could help. Just need FAA approval. It would be a very small operation. Machine work and engines, engineering are my thing.
And not looking to become a millionair, just want to do the kinda work I love. And the work shift I love. And do something so all can enjoy the old piston powered aircraft. I miss that music in the sky.
And not looking to become a millionair, just want to do the kinda work I love. And the work shift I love. And do something so all can enjoy the old piston powered aircraft. I miss that music in the sky.
Engines
Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:07 pm
Hello engguy,
Being a person that owns and operates an engine O/H shop, albiet not radials, I have read this entire thread with interest. Unfortunately, it seems to point out, rather in a blanket statement, that all engine O/H shops are substandard. I have some thoughts for you, in particular if you are thinking of becoming a "Repair Station," which it somewhat sounds like you want to do. You are going to have a tremendous amount of time, effort and money tied up in that process. You must have all the tooling, manuals and parts available for the items approved for repair by your facility. You must also have a testing program, all data and all information "approved" for any mods you want to make. I'm sure you're aware the FAA may at anytime request a change or deny any or all of the above. What is you're experience level in the rebuild of say a 3350? They are a large, very heavy radial engine with many variants that not that many people are overhauling, same with 4360's. The O/H of some of the more popular twin rows are getting even harder and harder these days. I have friends that overhaul these engines, needless to say, they have invested ten's of thousands of dollars in inventory, tools, test rigs as well as been doing this for years. In regards to manufacture of new parts, it has been my experience so far, that trying to change materials or modify the original part to make it better by use of modern technology that the results are somewhat surpising. I have had a few parts that various engineers have absolutely sworn they could make better, so I provided them with an original part to test/duplicate. Much to their surprise, hey-- they built pretty darn good stuff out of good material's and processes, we can't REALLY make it any better. As far as warranties go, there usually tends to be a lot of things that go into that. The first and most important thing is how the problem is handled from the outset. Rebuilding these 60 year old engine's is a lot of work. Parts are getting harder and harder to come buy. How willing are you going to be to warrant a part that is sixty years old and that you really have absolutley no idea what it's history is? Well, I have this brand new NOS part, I'll use it. OK, sometime's new is worse than used, it has NO history (other than it is in cosmoline in a factory box) and is an unproven part. It's a tough road to try and navigate. The final part is this, as far as failure's go, it isn't a question of if, it is a matter of WHEN. There are a great many things that can contribute to a failure, that once the product leave's your hands, you no longer have any control over. I have been doing this for close to 20 years now, and believe me it has not gotten any easier. You never have enough tools or parts, and the rebuilds these days are much more involved than they used to be. I wish you well on your endeavours and we'll see where your at in a few years.
Regards, Sparrow
Being a person that owns and operates an engine O/H shop, albiet not radials, I have read this entire thread with interest. Unfortunately, it seems to point out, rather in a blanket statement, that all engine O/H shops are substandard. I have some thoughts for you, in particular if you are thinking of becoming a "Repair Station," which it somewhat sounds like you want to do. You are going to have a tremendous amount of time, effort and money tied up in that process. You must have all the tooling, manuals and parts available for the items approved for repair by your facility. You must also have a testing program, all data and all information "approved" for any mods you want to make. I'm sure you're aware the FAA may at anytime request a change or deny any or all of the above. What is you're experience level in the rebuild of say a 3350? They are a large, very heavy radial engine with many variants that not that many people are overhauling, same with 4360's. The O/H of some of the more popular twin rows are getting even harder and harder these days. I have friends that overhaul these engines, needless to say, they have invested ten's of thousands of dollars in inventory, tools, test rigs as well as been doing this for years. In regards to manufacture of new parts, it has been my experience so far, that trying to change materials or modify the original part to make it better by use of modern technology that the results are somewhat surpising. I have had a few parts that various engineers have absolutely sworn they could make better, so I provided them with an original part to test/duplicate. Much to their surprise, hey-- they built pretty darn good stuff out of good material's and processes, we can't REALLY make it any better. As far as warranties go, there usually tends to be a lot of things that go into that. The first and most important thing is how the problem is handled from the outset. Rebuilding these 60 year old engine's is a lot of work. Parts are getting harder and harder to come buy. How willing are you going to be to warrant a part that is sixty years old and that you really have absolutley no idea what it's history is? Well, I have this brand new NOS part, I'll use it. OK, sometime's new is worse than used, it has NO history (other than it is in cosmoline in a factory box) and is an unproven part. It's a tough road to try and navigate. The final part is this, as far as failure's go, it isn't a question of if, it is a matter of WHEN. There are a great many things that can contribute to a failure, that once the product leave's your hands, you no longer have any control over. I have been doing this for close to 20 years now, and believe me it has not gotten any easier. You never have enough tools or parts, and the rebuilds these days are much more involved than they used to be. I wish you well on your endeavours and we'll see where your at in a few years.
Regards, Sparrow
Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:15 pm
Well said, Sparrow.
Gary
Gary
Engines
Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:36 pm
Thanks Gary, appreciate it. Rec'd your PM, will answer via PM
Sparrow
Sparrow
Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:25 pm
“that all engine O/H shops are substandard” Evidently ALL OF THEM ARE NOT, because if they were the FAA wouldn’t allow them to operate.
“”if you are thinking of becoming a "Repair Station," “ Not my intent that is why I am attempting to point out that the FAA needs to handle the ANTIQUE PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT differently. Just as Supposed top notch Mr. Big Radial engine overhaul FAA APROVED REPAIR STATION, can assemble JUNK. Why can’t Mr. simple simon Engine Guy, that actually cares about the job and how the parts are handled, and has experience on 3350’s 2800’s 1830’s, and who knows how many other automotive/ industrial class engines, be given the chance? Just as you have certain standards to adhere to in your small aviation engine shop, there is no reason that I can not do the same. And what I am saying here, what is the difference who does the overhaul, if that newly overhauled engine fails just as those FIFI engines did? Like you said it can happen. Us nit picky germo phobes just seem to do things a bit more fussy than the average joe mechanic and it usually takes us way more time and we are proud of that, but we never seem to have to redo the same project over again.
I have a couple of questions for you. You say you operate an engine overhaul facility, do you ever have machine work done? And have you ever had a crankshaft reground?
I know these are off the wall, I will elaborate at a later post.
“They are a large, very heavy radial engine with many variants that not that many people are overhauling, same with 4360's. “ Is it the weight thing? I’ve overhauled engines that weigh near 40,000lbs.
“tools, test rigs as well as been doing this for year” This is what Machinists do.
“Rebuilding these 60 year old engine's is a lot of work. Parts are getting harder and harder to come buy. How willing are you going to be to warrant a part that is sixty years old and that you really have absolutely no idea what it's history is? “ Yes a lot of work, so if the customer is getting a very good cost labor wise, and just like the big outfits I’m sure they have 60 year old parts clauses and exclusions, I could not warrant parts that I have no manufacturing control over, and if they want a great warranty you have to price the work accordingly.
“Well, I have this brand new NOS part, I'll use it. OK, sometime's new is worse than used, it has NO history (other than it is in cosmoline in a factory box) and is an unproven part. It's a tough road to try and navigate. “ I agree, I have seen new piston rings with porosity holes break. Its not always an assembly error that causes a failure. And again, that part was made by someone that most likely didn’t care, he’s just making parts and, collecting a paycheck. He may have had an insert go bad, and over heated that part, and caused localized heat stress and altered the heat treat and sructure, but after a nice polishing and deburring job, it is not apparent, and as long as it is dimensionally good, it flys through inspection. I have seen it many times before, and its usually the boss or owner of the company that makes sure it gets out the door. Yeah believe it or not.
“You never have enough tools or parts, and the rebuilds these days are much more involved than they used to be. I wish you well on your endeavors and we'll see where your at in a few years.” The tools part is easy for a machinist. Rebuild is the most misused word on the internet these days. In the old days, even the good old P&W manuals say “overhaul” to do a “rebuild” you had better have all the equipment that the manufacture had. And I feel to do a rebuild all cycle stressed parts should be replaced with newly manufactured items. In that respect I would just want to do overhauls.
It all depends of gaining approval to do this work to see where I’m at in a few years.
Hope its not like a good friend of mine that just passed away from an acccident, sad days here.
Hmmm this is like telling your kid don’t bother dreaming about being a Doctor or a pilot or a? And saying it just ain’t gona happen. No I’m not a kid.
And thank you for the nice post
“”if you are thinking of becoming a "Repair Station," “ Not my intent that is why I am attempting to point out that the FAA needs to handle the ANTIQUE PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT differently. Just as Supposed top notch Mr. Big Radial engine overhaul FAA APROVED REPAIR STATION, can assemble JUNK. Why can’t Mr. simple simon Engine Guy, that actually cares about the job and how the parts are handled, and has experience on 3350’s 2800’s 1830’s, and who knows how many other automotive/ industrial class engines, be given the chance? Just as you have certain standards to adhere to in your small aviation engine shop, there is no reason that I can not do the same. And what I am saying here, what is the difference who does the overhaul, if that newly overhauled engine fails just as those FIFI engines did? Like you said it can happen. Us nit picky germo phobes just seem to do things a bit more fussy than the average joe mechanic and it usually takes us way more time and we are proud of that, but we never seem to have to redo the same project over again.
I have a couple of questions for you. You say you operate an engine overhaul facility, do you ever have machine work done? And have you ever had a crankshaft reground?
I know these are off the wall, I will elaborate at a later post.
“They are a large, very heavy radial engine with many variants that not that many people are overhauling, same with 4360's. “ Is it the weight thing? I’ve overhauled engines that weigh near 40,000lbs.
“tools, test rigs as well as been doing this for year” This is what Machinists do.
“Rebuilding these 60 year old engine's is a lot of work. Parts are getting harder and harder to come buy. How willing are you going to be to warrant a part that is sixty years old and that you really have absolutely no idea what it's history is? “ Yes a lot of work, so if the customer is getting a very good cost labor wise, and just like the big outfits I’m sure they have 60 year old parts clauses and exclusions, I could not warrant parts that I have no manufacturing control over, and if they want a great warranty you have to price the work accordingly.
“Well, I have this brand new NOS part, I'll use it. OK, sometime's new is worse than used, it has NO history (other than it is in cosmoline in a factory box) and is an unproven part. It's a tough road to try and navigate. “ I agree, I have seen new piston rings with porosity holes break. Its not always an assembly error that causes a failure. And again, that part was made by someone that most likely didn’t care, he’s just making parts and, collecting a paycheck. He may have had an insert go bad, and over heated that part, and caused localized heat stress and altered the heat treat and sructure, but after a nice polishing and deburring job, it is not apparent, and as long as it is dimensionally good, it flys through inspection. I have seen it many times before, and its usually the boss or owner of the company that makes sure it gets out the door. Yeah believe it or not.
“You never have enough tools or parts, and the rebuilds these days are much more involved than they used to be. I wish you well on your endeavors and we'll see where your at in a few years.” The tools part is easy for a machinist. Rebuild is the most misused word on the internet these days. In the old days, even the good old P&W manuals say “overhaul” to do a “rebuild” you had better have all the equipment that the manufacture had. And I feel to do a rebuild all cycle stressed parts should be replaced with newly manufactured items. In that respect I would just want to do overhauls.
It all depends of gaining approval to do this work to see where I’m at in a few years.
Hope its not like a good friend of mine that just passed away from an acccident, sad days here.
Hmmm this is like telling your kid don’t bother dreaming about being a Doctor or a pilot or a? And saying it just ain’t gona happen. No I’m not a kid.
And thank you for the nice post
Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:37 pm
The FAA does a horrible job overseeing maintenance. Once you have the certificate or license, they don't do anything until someone gets killed (or your competition drops a dime on you). An FAA certificate or license is no guarantee of safety or good workmanship. Your best bet is to know your mechanic or overhaul shop and check references carefully. Hard to fly airplanes and limited parts availability make it all the more difficult, but general aviation planes where all the parts are available still have similar problems. Added to the mix is that general aviation is a hobby for many, so owners can be reluctant to spend the money required.Evidently ALL OF THEM ARE NOT, because if they were the FAA wouldn’t allow them to operate.
Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:15 pm
engguy
1. Go work for someone and learn the economics of warbirds before you spend a dime.
2. People who don't have a passion for warbirds and old airplanes don't make it ten seconds! It has very little to do with how much someone likes there job. That's just a required ingredient in a large recipe to surviving in this industry.
3. You seem to have the whole thing figured out already so I won't waste anymore of your time (on a Sunday night at 10:00) that you could be spending searching for the information that you know exists but nobody seems to have, or searching for that material that the drawing specifies but hasn't been made in 40 years, or finding that guy that you don't have to watch like hawk because he doesn't have the same level of passion or experience, or searching for that one part that would cost more to reproduce than the value of the assemly you are overhauling, or...........................................
4.Good luck! You seem to have the positive attitude ingredient!
1. Go work for someone and learn the economics of warbirds before you spend a dime.
2. People who don't have a passion for warbirds and old airplanes don't make it ten seconds! It has very little to do with how much someone likes there job. That's just a required ingredient in a large recipe to surviving in this industry.
3. You seem to have the whole thing figured out already so I won't waste anymore of your time (on a Sunday night at 10:00) that you could be spending searching for the information that you know exists but nobody seems to have, or searching for that material that the drawing specifies but hasn't been made in 40 years, or finding that guy that you don't have to watch like hawk because he doesn't have the same level of passion or experience, or searching for that one part that would cost more to reproduce than the value of the assemly you are overhauling, or...........................................
4.Good luck! You seem to have the positive attitude ingredient!
Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:05 pm
I've done the "Go work for someone" deal. And it gets you nowhere.
Some real good posts here from you guys.
I appreciate the information.
Would like to have an answer from the guy that owns the shop.
Some real good posts here from you guys.
I appreciate the information.
Would like to have an answer from the guy that owns the shop.