I Hate To Ask, But Swamp Ghost....?

[bdk]

However what worries me is that the deal as such seems to have broken down so easily to the degree that you wonder how much if anything did the PNG government know about the recovery intentions. If I was planning to recover an aircraft from a foreign nation I would make sure that I had discussed it in the days before and that there was no element of doubt on either side.

If I'm not mistaken, negotiations have been going on for what, 30 years? Helicopters and barges were leased, containers were secured, local help was hired, etc. Doesn't sound like anyone was hiding this from "the authorities." From what I have read this is all about politics and getting money for doing nothing. Third world countries often have a completely different way of looking at property rights than do westerners. Something is legal when the right palms are greased- the laws get made up as you go.

As for her combat history - yes she is a very interesting Fortress - I do wonder though if her value is as a static or 'Flying' Fortress . If flying you really do start to wonder if it's being done for historical purposes or just to put a Fortress in the air. Either way you start to get to the point where large amounts of her history will be effectively replaced to get her into what is judged as a displayable airframe.

So what do you suggest? A swamp diorama? Encase the aircraft in plastic like a "fly in an ice cube"? Are you asking if the "social value" trumps the monetary value of this aircraft? Who makes THAT decision?

Bringing her to the U.S would not enormously add to what the U.S already has - you could argue with a large degree of justification that she should stay in the region even if it meant restoration and display in a country like Australia in the short term.

This isn't about the US. This is about the efforts that private parties have made to secure the airframe for whatever reason they choose. What if this had been done by Australians for display in Australia? Is it OK then? I don't see that it matters where the airplane is going- the only thing that matters is IF it should leave PNG. Either they do have legal title to the airplane or they don't. If they do, let them take it.

it is my understanding that this plane was paid for long ago, only the sellers want to now reneg on the deal but don't have the money to give back. What am I missing here?

Last edited by bdk on Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

[mustangdriver]

I don't understand about Lacey's aircraft. That is not a NMUSAF airplane. He owns that.

[ww2John]

This thread has gone schizo...any more subjects tossed into it and I'm gonna need a guide!

mustangdriver - I mentioned Lacey's Lady as just one more example of a USA based B17 that needed some TLC. Please read my original posting a page or 2 back. I was not blaming anyone for anything; certainly NOT the NMUSAF. My point was adding to the lists of B17's needing some attention, not to make trouble.

OY!

[mustangdriver]

It's all good buddy. I did not reall ymean that toward you. You see there was a time when there was a big debate over who owned that aircraft.

[David J Burke]

BDK - I don't actually think 'Swamp Ghost' was paid back in the early 1970's - if it was the sum involved now would be quite trivial and hardly something which they (PNG Government) would struggle to find. There was an agreement to recover aircraft - a gap of thirty years between an agreement and actually doing the work hardly seems credible. Why also would it take thirty years of negociation to achieve? I think it rather more relates to the oportunities of television documentaries and the ability to use heavy lift helicopters and the increase in the value of the type.
As for restoring her in Australia or indeed New Zealand - why not ? Her final combat mission was being flown in that theatre and her history is there not in the U.S. At least she would then have a chance to return to PNG post restoration.
As for some of your other comments - it's not just third world countries that have had 'problems' with property rights . View your own country's history with the ownership of land . Regards hands being 'greased' - perish the thought that anyone in the U.S would do that either!!

[mustangdriver]

There have been many attempts at going through all of the motions to get this aircraft, and the PNG government is not open to any of them. That is why they were left out in the cold on the current deal. As far as where this is to be restored, it should go to where ever the buyer wants it. I don't see why it should go anywhere else before the U.S. since it is one of our aircraft. More people would identify with it in the U.S. However I don't think the new owner should take to PNG ever, for the fear of them impounding it for some unkown reason.

[Rob Mears]

Let’s just make sure we keep the Swamp Ghost away from the big bad United States who is already over indulged with too many B-17’s. The plane should definitely remain in PNG…or at least Australia, New Zealand, or…anywhere but the United States - you get my point. I mean, the fact that the plane was designed and built in the US, and flown in combat by American soldiers and lost while flying a mission is support of the United States – all that is really a moot point. That nasty old swamp is where its real heritage lies! Anyway, you guys have all the cool toys and way to much resolve for your own good when it comes to acquiring rare treasures. You’re spoiled and have a mean ol’ corrupt government too…so admit your shortcomings and share the wealth!

[oscardeuce]

Yes,

"From each according to his means; to each according to his needs."

[bdk]

As for some of your other comments - it's not just third world countries that have had 'problems' with property rights . View your own country's history with the ownership of land . Regards hands being 'greased' - perish the thought that anyone in the U.S would do that either!!

True, everywhere has it's problems with regard to property rights, but surely you aren't suggesting the two are on the same playing field? At least here there are laws and you can go to a reasonably just court to settle property disputes.

[David J Burke]

There are some interesting contradictions in the various points. Many argue that she was acquired by her potential owners back in the 1970's but they are only now exercising that option.That makes me wonder did they actually view the swamp as a good place to keep her for 30 plus years ? Or could it be that a Flying Fortress is now worth a lot more money in flying condition than it was in 1972? I guess a good example at $4 million. On top of that there are potential documentary fees.
Secondly a number of people view that she was a machine flown by U.S pilots on behalf of the U.S government. You could argue then that examples of captured equipment should be returned to their original operators - how many U.S pilots flew the Dornier Do335 or for that matter the Arado jet? I don't just relate this to the U.S - I would be the first to argue that the unique Me410 belongs back in Germany instead of the U.K.
Lastly I don't recall many B-17's entering combat over continental U.S.A . Who in the U.S would advocate the removal of 'Mary Alice' and 'Sally B' back to the U.S ? These pilots fought and died in their respective war zones - I think it's more than a little naieve for people to believe that there is no interest in these machines outside the U.S.
PNG certainly doesn't have a great record in preserving machines - you do have to wonder though in which way the various interests who have removed aircraft from the country have tried to encourage or indeed assist preservation in any way in the country.

[mustangdriver]

Yeah, by all means it is in a far better place in the swamp than in the U.S. The PNG government really has proved that they care about that B-17 by doing nothing.

[David J Burke]

Same argument again! - Sat in swamp she has survived sixty plus year amazingly well - just exactly how many true B-17 combat veterans survive in the U.S from the thousands that were scrapped ?
If it makes it any easier exclude 'Shoo Shoo Baby' as she was brought back from France and her survival is because of the French having a use for her.

[Rob Mears]

So what is your argument Burke? All I'm learning from your perspective is that it's much easier to stand against something than it is to stand for something.

By your logic, we deserve to watch the few remaining combat aircraft rot into oblivion because there was not enough collective insight 40+ years ago to preserve more examples before they were scrapped?

All of the disjointed arguments you've posted so far have only one thing in common - dislike of the United States. You apparently don't mind preserving Swamp Ghost as long as it doesn't take place in the US. We somehow don't deserve to have it come here because we already have so many other suviving B-17's...but even that's a bad thing because so few of them have combat history - so we suck both ways. Also, if not for the historical insight of the French, Shoo Shoo Baby would never have been preserved specifically because of its combat history. With all this sacrilegous warbird preservation business going on here in the US, we really should count our lucky stars that the French elected to dust off that secret shoebox of theirs and award us with the world's only combat vet Flying Fortress.

Are you sure you're not just using the Swamp Ghost debate as a smoke screen for a completely different agenda?

[David J Burke]

Rob - What utter nonsense ! I have a number of American friends and help with projects in the U.S . They do not share your view that because
'johnny foreigner' has something you want it's fair game to go and get it no matter what! What your posts seem to indicate is that PNG has little or no laws - everyone there is totally corrupt and the only thing they like doing is extracting Dollars from poor unsuspecting Americans!
Your arguement is that she would be better off in the U.S - even if that involved virtually reskinning the whole airframe and repairing any damage that has occured during transportation. If she has been dismantled in any way other than at production joints are you going to say anything negative about it or will that just be a by-product of the PNG government's attitude towards her?
My argument has been clear throughout - she was quite well protected for a long time - witness the Australians recovering her guns in the early 1970's - since her 'discovery' the pace of damage has accelerated decidedly - often due to Western interests. Now that the government of PNG seek to stop the export of their heritage there seems to be an outpooring of zenophobia - maybe i should take your view that being a virtual third world country we should grab whatever we like because they don't deserve to have them !

[Rob Mears]

Your arguement is that she would be better off in the U.S - even if that involved virtually reskinning the whole airframe and repairing any damage that has occured during transportation.

Nope, that's not my argument. My POV is aimed ideally at recovering the plane for preservation before it has completely rotted or fallen victim to scrappers or souvenier hunters, whether they be homegrown or of the Western variety.

If she has been dismantled in any way other than at production joints are you going to say anything negative about it or will that just be a by-product of the PNG government's attitude towards her?

You bet your butt I will!! If the recovery team has in fact taken a chainsaw to the wing spars, etc then they clearly have done a major disservice to the entire effort. The idea is to preserve the plane to a greater degree than could be accomplished it's previous uncontrolled environment.

My argument has been clear throughout - she was quite well protected for a long time - witness the Australians recovering her guns in the early 1970's - since her 'discovery' the pace of damage has accelerated decidedly - often due to Western interests. Now that the government of PNG seek to stop the export of their heritage there seems to be an outpooring of zenophobia - maybe i should take your view that being a virtual third world country we should grab whatever we like because they don't deserve to have them !

That particular recovery team has been involved in an on going effort to recover Swamp Ghost for decades. It's the fly-by-night government process that makes the entire escapade such a murky mess IMO. It strikes me as very similar to dealing with any number of Central American governments. It's not about "taking advantage of third-world countries". It's about attempting to conduct a proper business deal with the proper officials, only to find a new person in their place when you come to retrieve your stuff, and that person has no clue what you're talking about.

I have had no personal dealings with the PNG government, therefore I won't pass any undue judgement on them, but surely most officials would have handed down a firm "yes" of "no" by now (after 30+ years in limbo). You know as well as I that politics breeds corruption in every country and in any language. It was either corruption or dereliction of duty that allowed certain PNG government officials to sign a release for Swamp Ghost when they didn't have the power to do so, thus setting this whole mess in motion. They've apparently got the chain of command straightened out now, and are struggling to figure out how fat of a check it will take to repair their lost honor, and to whom the money will go.

Personally, I just want to see that plane preserved by someone and 'stuff' the politics. If the PNG government got righteous all of a sudden and decided to properly and effectively house the plane and preserve it "as is" (with proper public access of course), I would be more than content. It would give me yet one more reason to make the journey down south. You can bet your butt I wouldn't be treking through miles of elephant grass to see it, even if I was in the area.

As to the restoration, I have serious issues with the concept of restoring the plane to airworthy condition. As you stated, a massive amount of the original airframe will have to be scrapped in order to do this. I'd just as well elect to see it's character preserved as is and displayed indoors as a prominent museum. Maybe an existing private museum with a non-flying B-17 would be willing to make an even trade for the Swamp Ghost. That way Tallichet could have a(nother) flyer, and Swamp Ghost could finally draw crowds with her character decidedly intact.