Warbird Information Exchange

Our wing has over 300 members but like most volunteer organizations few participate in the day-to-day running of the operation. I estimate about 40 or so members actually work at the hangar on a regular basis. In the last few years we have lost many of our original wing members due to health problems and worse. We manage to maintain 9 war birds. The planes and the people that keep them flying are both getting older. We do have several younger members but way too few. I don’t know what we have to do to attract the pre-retirement crowd but if we don’t, when we go west, you might as well bury the planes with us. We can’t keep doing this without the support of younger people. POF, Collings, CAF we are all in this together and need to do whatever it takes to pass this wonderful heritage on.

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I think one idea for generating new and younger members, as well as much increased attendance at airshows, is to look outside your boxes and open things up for younger people who typically don't know or care about aviation and the warbird community. As much as the loyalists, myself included, want only "all things warbird" at an airshow, I have seen an increase in attendance in "non-warbird" displays such as hot-rods and classic cars. I have been to Airsho, Oshkosh, Chino, Reno, etc ... and I have been to classic car shows, harley davidson shows, boat shows ... attendance at these "non-warbird" shows are overwhelming at times. Thousands upon thousands of people who are spending a lot of money. Lots of food, lots or everything. ... Now I also go to the Indy 500 race and the Kentucky derby regularly and I see something that is wonderful, I have seen P-51's and B-17's fly over each at times and the overwhelming crowns are in awe at what they are seeing and after the event I actually hear people say the best part was when the fast airplane came in low over the track.

Point being, maybe the airshow organizers and other event organizers could murge into a much larger event such as classic and hot-rod cars, motorcycles and warbirds at the same airport and that way expose so many people to ALL the attractions of the event. Part of the show would be the typical warbird flybys followed by a car parade on the runway followed by motorcycles etc, etc.

Something for everyone at the same event ... and you would be exposing more people to more interests. I strongly believe that membership would rise in this format.

disregard

This is my first time (and maybe my last) to comment on WIX. I been quietly watching from the sidelines for quite a while now. I know I'll hate myself in the morning for jumping in on this subject, but here goes. I am a CAF member on a self imposed leave of abcense. I experienced so much frustration with my failure to successfully lead the B-24/29 Squadron that I decided to step back for a while and do some other things in life for a while. With that bit of info many of you will know who I am and if you don't you can certainly find out if your interested, but that's not really important. My failure was a result of my lacking leadership skills, naivete and my false impression that the unit members realized that major changes absolutely, positively had to occur. Thinking that I had a mandate for change, I charged "all ahead fullspeed". After charging ahead for a while I looked over my shoulder and was for the most part alone. All I could see behind me were people only willing to do what they had been doing for the past 35 years and in that same old fashion. I am not proud of myself because I have never considered myself to be a quitter. I simply ran up against the wall head first. I finally gave up. Just as I suspected, when you stop beating your head against the wall it really does stop hurting after a while. I have occasionally been somewhat outspoken within the CAF and offered my thoughts on necessary changes that for the most part fell on deaf ears. I have no axe to grind with any individual. I do, however, have some original thoughts on the subject of the CAF's future. Maybe someone here will be amused by my whining and/or ideas. I'll try not to ramble on too much.

In order for the CAF to compete on equal footing with other museums such as POF, Cavanaugh, Collings, Lone Star, etc. it would be necessary for those other museums to move their operations to some remote location and then send 90% of their assets to other remote locations and have them operated by multiple individual operators and flown only by pilots that can afford the cost of sponsorship (this practice introduces the possibility that pilots with the most money and not always the most skill or best judgement end up flying the aircraft and sometimes bending them). Then once a year try to convince the individual operators to bring the assets to the main obscure location for an Airshow. OOPs, I just farted very, very loud in Church during a lull in the sermon. I'm sorry. Seriously though, from where I'm observing this unique turn of events taking place I have come to the conclusion that the organization is totally and impossibly dysfunctional utilizing the present game plan. The sudden increase in fuel prices and other operating costs have accelerated that which was inevitable. I understand the reluctance of people to accept the facts, because it would spell an end to what are presently some pretty good deals for individual units. I really do understand, but what is actually the best thing to do for the sake of the aircraft and stated mission of the CAF? That question is the one that people need to start dealing with in a timely and realistic way. It is time to begin operating in a businesslike fashion instead of like a flying club (I don't mean this in a bad way, but those days are over, it just hasn't been realized yet by most - it's kind of like the deer that's been shot through the heart with a high powered rifle, he doesn't yet realize that he's dead and will run another 100 yards before falling over). The product offered is mainly the aircraft at the present time and I would submit that they are not being utilized in the most advantageous manner considering that the world is changing at a much faster rate than the CAF membership is currently willing to accept and adapt to.!!!

LOOK INTO MY EYES, DO I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION, NOW READ MY LIPS - Airshow promoter's/organizer's budgets will NEVER,NEVER,NEVER again be able to compensate for the increase in fuel prices. The unbelievable increase in overhaul costs and engine life/reliability will NEVER,NEVER,NEVER get better. I just took a look at the Airnav website for fuel price statistics. On the US East coast fuel is selling as high as $7.65 a gallon. At that price it would cost approximately $45,000 to fill the B-29 just one time. The total cost for the last two engines for the B-29 that didn't work out was $350,000. It is time to "wake up and smell the frejoles"!!!!!!

These high fuel prices along with engine overhaul, general maintenance, insurance and FAA training and checking requirements are simply making it impossible to take the airplanes to the people. It would then stand to reason to try to bring the people to the airplanes if we want to continue to fly them. The present game plan does not adequately address or accomodate that opton. Why would someone in Europe, Asia or the USA on vacation come to Midland, TX to see an aviation museum boasting 100+ flying aircraft only to find out that there really are only about eight or ten mostly uninteresting examples on hand at any given time?

It is not what the general membership wants to hear, but in my opinion it is time to start looking at reversing the the way that things are done. While Midland is a really dumb and bad place to have the museum, it is entirely possible to work past this obstacle. Work with me for a minute here. If all the aircraft were based at Midland and a real "world class" museum were created there would be a reason for people to come. It would certainly be easier to attract customers to a better location, but that's another issue. Let your imagination run wild for a minute. Activity "packages" that allow visitors/customers to experience a variety of unique things such as riding in miltary vehicles, helping to service and prefilght the aircraft, attending an aircraft ground school, firing miltary firearms, going on a fighter or bomber mission as a crew member and a long list of other creative things could provide a once in a lifetime experience worth MANY U.S. dollars. Flying in the airplanes would just be part of a bigger package, but it would allow us to keep them flying (the present plan doesn't look as though it will keep them flying to me). It could be a "fantasy island" or "field of dreams" type experience. If passenger rides and regular flying events in Midland were offered the aircraft could continue to fly without the necessity of burning massive amounts of fuel and engine wear to relocate. It would mean that the crews and volunteers would have to travel to Midland (or wherever) to participate and I realize that seems an impossible burden, but what is another realistic and workable alternative? It might be the only way to have the opportunity to fly them!! Instead of the aircraft "rotating" to Midland periodically, they might periodically rotate out to the individual units.

In my opinion Headquarters needs to be in charge of scheduling the events that the aircraft participate in to take full advantange of value of the assets and maximize the product offered. At the present time individual units, for the most part, do their own thing. I can testify that it is often easier to get assistance from other museums than it is between other CAF units.


I fully expect to catch a large ration of s*%t over my comments. These are only a few of my thoughts. I sincerely would like to see the aircraft continue to fly. On the present course I don't see it happening for the long run. Drastic changes and sacrifices must be made.

I could probably rant on for quite a while, but I'll zip it up now. I will be standingby at "attention" for the ensuing and duly deserved verbal flogging coming my way!!

Thank-you B29driver for sharing your heartfelt thoughts. Like Gary's comments throughout the whole B24 process, I appreciate hearing the sincere thoughts of someone who has "been there & done that".

As just one amateur/enthusiast on the outside (non-pilot/non-owner, but a volunteer), I have long wondered how the CAF model could work. I thank you for candidly sharing your personal insights into this situation.

I have often marveled at the IWM Duxford model where the museum (static a/c) "shares" the field with private operators and related businesses. It may not be a perfect arrangement for all parties, but it does seem to work - having valuable static a/c in very close proximity to valuable flying a/c. A "living experience" and one that the CAF might emulate (but not in Midland, TX...the center of exactly what population again?).

I have often wished someone would do that private/public partnership in the USA (the IWM Duxford model). With all the large USAF bases closed in the last decade+, large airports close to major population centers are still "available" and would be suitable for such a deal. The real question might be, who wants to "play" in this new paradigm?

For far too long it seems that many of these "museum" organizations are run a bit like an old boy's club with the unspoken "does not play well with others" hanging in the very air around them. Far too many failures of aviation organizations resulting from something all too similar to; "its my ball and if I can't make the rules, I'm going home and you can't play with me". How many of the EAA Warbird Squadrons and CAF Wings are more like flying clubs for pilots than a center for enthusiasts of warbirds? Lincoln said something like "We shall all hang together or we shall all hang separately" (sorry I do not have the exact correct quote here, but you must get my idea).

When the "same old, same old" don't work no more, ya gotta try something new.

Not that the EAA is the be-all and end-all in the aviation world, but they recognized the "aging population" problem several years ago and are aggressively working to reach out to younger people. Their "Young Eagles" program is just one such initiative. Perhaps other organizations, museums and private a/c operators should work together to address this problem and work towards a solution together.

...just my 2 cents...

Thank-you for reading.

As someone who has worked in the event end of warbirds for the majority of my life I can say for a good number of years starting I would say in the late 90s I have seen issues smoldering the background of the aviation event "industry" lets call it. For one the cost of getting an aircraft to an event has just skyrocketed. It seems the costs and logistics involved in maintaining and operating these aircraft have really spiraled out of control. I can remember years ago Bill Klaers and Aero Trader used to fly their aircraft to 6-10 airshows a year. The last time I spoke to bill he hadn't flown the B-25 or C-45 in 6 months. It isn't just fuel, it is insurance, AD compliance costs, maintenance costs.

I like your idea of the multifaceted event I really do and in fact we have attempted to do similar events in the past. The unanticipated and somewhat surprising aspect of these events is that the airplane owners/pilots, the car owners/drivers, etc don't like these types of events. The reason being is they feel like it dilutes the focus of the event. The car guys feel like the airplane guys have a chip on their shoulder and the airplane guys feel like they spend a ton of time and energy on their aircraft and feel a little under appreciated when someone is drooling over a $30,000 57 Chevy chopped and lowed and nobody is drooling over their $1.2 million P-51. Believe it or not this is based on a true story. I have seen a Corsair pilot upset over the fact that someone made him wait to be towed and instead they towed a Seafury first or upset becuase they only got 2 free tickets to the Saturday night dinner and his plane costs $2 million and the car guy got 2 tickets and his car costs $25,000. I have seen bomber pilots upset becuase the fighters got a more prominent placement on the ramp than their bomber. Don't even get me started on the arguments that happen over the distribution of fuel. Bringing all these personalities, good bad or indifferent together is a major effort. We have gotten to the point at our events where we have a close knit group of guys that we work with well but sometimes when you get out of the box you can run into trouble.

There are a lot of logistics that go into these events that the general public just doesn't understand and they think you are making a killing at $12 entry fee when the truth is at that price it is hardly worth holding the event. Then again the public doesn't get it so they go to the air show hosted at the local military base where everyone gets in free.

Ryan

b29driver-
GREAT post and welcome to WIX...I could never fathom why the CAF Headquarters was moved to MAF in the first place. Personally, I think a large metropolitan location would be much better for the CAF.

-Pat (CAF Life Member)

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Trust me, I know what I'm doing.

...I could never fathom why the CAF Headquarters was moved to MAF in the first place.

It was all about the money, not the logic. The most immediate free stuff was made available there and many would now argue it was far from the wisest choice. At this point in time how would a major move to another location be feasible? Any suitable/desirable location now would likely be worth so much more money as a commercial operation that it is out of reach for a non-profit organization.

I was a CAF member then and if I remember correctly there were several reasons mentioned:

1. The Midland site cost was cheap ($1 per year?).

2. The Midland city fathers lobbied hard for the move since they had a large hanger(factory?) facility standing empty with nobody interested in leasing it.

3. Location at a large population center meant many airspace restrictions during Airshos that Midland would never have.

4. The city of Harlingen wanted us out of there so they could expand their airline terminal area and weren't willing to provide alternate facilities on the north side of the airport.

But mainly items 1 and 2.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Jack

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It's what you learn after you think you know it all, that counts.

#1,2 & 4 are all money.
#3 a large population center might provide an airspace challenge for a once a year airshow, but it would likely have untold benefits in numbers of visitors, volunteers and sponsors and revenue to keep the boat afloat. We certainly don't have to worry about being bothered by all those volunteers and visitors in Midland!!

Hi,

Planes , trains, and automobiles sounds like a great idea we all like em so why not, It always draws a crowd, some of the car shows really pack em in a combo might really be a big sell.

Thanks Mike

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

B-29Driver, I gotta agree with you. I personally thought the San Antonto pitch was the best option but there wasn't the "sweetening" that the Midland one had. SAT had the airports, population center and a long time interest in aviation not to mention many, many ex and retired military people to draw from for membership. Personally, my getting to Midland after the move was just one of the problems which soured me on continuing.

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It's what you learn after you think you know it all, that counts.

Yes indeed, very troubling times for all Warbird organizations and individual owners. Gas, insurance, maintanance, location, time, etc. ... and ego's ... all difficult issues to deal with.

This may be an idea as well ... you have an airshow coming up, where? ... anywhere .... the show organizer offers a sponsorship of .. lets say ... $100.00 or so to anyone who would like to sponsor an airplane just for the duration of the show. That individual sponsor would receive maybe a T-shirt with the individual aircraft on it or VIP access to help with anything that aircraft needed for the duration of the show, maybe sit in the cockpit or help clean the aircraft, whatever ... whatever that sponsor would be happy doing, the aircraft owner would use the sponsors money for fuel and other costs asociated with that aircraft attending the show. but that would be his or her airplane for the show. Kinda would make you feel like you were a real part of that plane. I know at Chino this year I paid Mark Foster, who was a real gentleman, $300.00 to sit in the cockpits of a Hellcat, Corsair and P-38. I loved it and POF loved it. All the pilot's and crew were real nice and respectful to me and said I could sit as long as I wanted. It was well worth the money to me.

Just a idea. ... Maybe this is already being done.

As for the CAF, B29driver is very correct. .... Location, location, location.

[quote="Hellcat"]Yes indeed, very troubling times for all Warbird organizations and individual owners. Gas, insurance, maintanance, location, time, etc. ... and ego's ... all difficult issues to deal with.

$300.00 to sit in the cockpits of a Hellcat, Corsair and P-38. I loved it and POF loved it.

I'm not opposed to any method of generating income with the warbirds and spreading good will. Most of the warbird operators do charge for getting into the aircraft unless they are at military sponsored events where it is supposed to be against the rules. The unpleasant true fact is that it hasn't been that long ago that $300 in gas would take a Hellcat or Corsair about four hours down the road = 800 nautical miles. $300 today will buy you barely enough gas for start, taxi, run-up, takeoff and a climb to cruising altitude before running out of that gas!!

Sadly B29 you're very true, but anything is better than nothing and I bet if a warbird owner knew that he had a half dozen "sponsors" waiting for him to taxi up to an airshow, I bet he would be grateful for them. I know I would be, even if it mean't letting these folks be close to his or her investment for a day or two. Many people would be happy to help out financially for an event just to be able to feel attached to a particular aircraft even for a short time such as an airshow. The good folks at POF didn't ask me for a dime, I was simply very happy to donate some money just to sit in a cockpit for a few minutes. sadly I don't have time and even more sadly I don't have the ambition to join an organization as a member. At this time I wouldn't be able to be a good member and if I were to become a member I would do so only if I could contribute not only financially, but also to be active in some way. many of you may disagree, but I personally feel what is the point of joining an organization, no matter what it is, if I can't be a contributor other than financially. It just doesn't seem worth it to me. I could continue with my feelings about joining a club or orgainzation, but I rather not stur up anything here.

Just my feelings.