Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:24 pm
How do you think I got to be the Broken Wrench? 
Properly trained A&P mechanics
Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:47 pm
I have a very strong opinion on this subject, for one I feel that we as dedicated mechanics are a dedicated breed and we are losing more every year.
I grew up around aircraft and airports since I was a child, my Father was a former Army Air Corp pilot/signal corp during WWII.
My aviation maintenance job started back in the 1970's working the line at a small airport in Minn., then at the Waukegan airport once again as a lineman at a very large flying club (20+ aircraft & 500 + members),
when I would talk to the mechanics about what I needed to do to become a mechanic they promptly showed me a broom to sweep the hanger or would show me a stack of wheel bearings that needed cleaning.
As I did these jobs "Grunt work" they showed me other jobs like cleaning spark plugs, mag timing etc.
After several years of working as a mechanics helper/apprentice working on piston aircraft I started working on turbine aircraft at another company which really rounded out my education along with hitting the books late into the evening.
When I started working the new job on turbines once again I got all the "Grunt work".
The "Kids" these days don't want to do the "Grunt" work as new mechanics and want to start out with jobs that pay the "Big" bucks and that is killing our trade.
Maybe the Aviation schools or for us in the field training mechanics should have a "weeding" out process, for me that weeding out was a joy because
I was able to get my hands dirty working on aircraft...
By giving the grunt work to a wannabe mechanic and he/she calls it quits they really shouldn't be an AIRFRAME&POWERPLANT MECHANIC...
I grew up around aircraft and airports since I was a child, my Father was a former Army Air Corp pilot/signal corp during WWII.
My aviation maintenance job started back in the 1970's working the line at a small airport in Minn., then at the Waukegan airport once again as a lineman at a very large flying club (20+ aircraft & 500 + members),
when I would talk to the mechanics about what I needed to do to become a mechanic they promptly showed me a broom to sweep the hanger or would show me a stack of wheel bearings that needed cleaning.
As I did these jobs "Grunt work" they showed me other jobs like cleaning spark plugs, mag timing etc.
After several years of working as a mechanics helper/apprentice working on piston aircraft I started working on turbine aircraft at another company which really rounded out my education along with hitting the books late into the evening.
When I started working the new job on turbines once again I got all the "Grunt work".
The "Kids" these days don't want to do the "Grunt" work as new mechanics and want to start out with jobs that pay the "Big" bucks and that is killing our trade.
Maybe the Aviation schools or for us in the field training mechanics should have a "weeding" out process, for me that weeding out was a joy because
I was able to get my hands dirty working on aircraft...
By giving the grunt work to a wannabe mechanic and he/she calls it quits they really shouldn't be an AIRFRAME&POWERPLANT MECHANIC...
Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:17 pm
I just stayed with sheetmetal.. I looked at the long term and I saw it was the avionics and sheetmetal/ composite guys that were in demand and that's where I concentrated my skills and training. I bought all the tools for the trade. (I have more tools than most commuter airline tool cribs. And that is no B.S.) I don't have many engine tools. I can do the general stuff but I generaly don't work on piston engines as a rule and If I need help I work under the supervision of a competent and current piston engine mechanic. I don't do interior work!!!!! 
They can get any retard to do that work. I will on my own stuff but not for money.
They can get any retard to do that work. I will on my own stuff but not for money.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:24 pm
JetStarMech.
I agree with you. My first job was parts washing. My clothing smelled so bad when I got home each night, my new wife made me throw my clothing outside our small trailer we were renting. We probably were using some chemicals that are illegal now, 50 some years later.
mike furline.
Saw you were a mech on Air Force Two. Do you go to the reunions? The next one is the first week in October 2009 at Andrews AFB. If so, maybe I'll see you there.
I agree with you. My first job was parts washing. My clothing smelled so bad when I got home each night, my new wife made me throw my clothing outside our small trailer we were renting. We probably were using some chemicals that are illegal now, 50 some years later.
mike furline.
Saw you were a mech on Air Force Two. Do you go to the reunions? The next one is the first week in October 2009 at Andrews AFB. If so, maybe I'll see you there.
Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:22 pm
When I came to the US about 20 years ago I found out that A&P instructors were telling the students "Get your ticket, go work at *Continental University* for 2 years & then go work for a real airline".
At the time a lot of airline employees would trade off free tickets in the local Recycler rag.....95% of them were from Continental employees...
I still haven't set foot on one of their aircraft....
At the time a lot of airline employees would trade off free tickets in the local Recycler rag.....95% of them were from Continental employees...
I still haven't set foot on one of their aircraft....
Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:30 am
Oi!
I didn't realize anybody would misread my little post--it was purely in jest. I was airborne and air assault, and and I have never had a problem climbing in or out of one--although I'd rather jump or rope out truth be told
It's just made me realize that the old rule: 25% of your people are awesome and should be shown some gratitude. 50% are just making it through the day and some of those might move up into the upper 25%. and then there is the lower 25%. Those are the guys ya'll are complaining about, and the ones that, frankly, are sort of scary when you realize how much responsibility they have. And on that note: Thank all of you who stick it out for us, and make up for the goldbricks.
I didn't realize anybody would misread my little post--it was purely in jest. I was airborne and air assault, and and I have never had a problem climbing in or out of one--although I'd rather jump or rope out truth be told
It's just made me realize that the old rule: 25% of your people are awesome and should be shown some gratitude. 50% are just making it through the day and some of those might move up into the upper 25%. and then there is the lower 25%. Those are the guys ya'll are complaining about, and the ones that, frankly, are sort of scary when you realize how much responsibility they have. And on that note: Thank all of you who stick it out for us, and make up for the goldbricks.
Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:39 am
It is unfortunate that Aircraft Mechanics aren't Darwinian like sport bike riders and self cancelling,
some of the bad ones get through and manage to hide out for their entire careers doing wrong dangerous and shoddy work that gives everyone a bad name.
When there is an incident, the reports all state 'A Boeing/Airbus airliner was involved in an incident today while landing in.......they never report that poorly handled repairs or mods caused the incident-
some of the bad ones get through and manage to hide out for their entire careers doing wrong dangerous and shoddy work that gives everyone a bad name.
When there is an incident, the reports all state 'A Boeing/Airbus airliner was involved in an incident today while landing in.......they never report that poorly handled repairs or mods caused the incident-
A man after my own heart
Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:40 am
I just stayed with sheetmetal..
And once in the blood can never get it out...
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=M7rXV4tdwvo
Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:33 am
Howdy,
This is my first post here, but I've been following the boards for some years now. The A & P thread is close to home and I finally have something to say...
I agree with the first post, and am in school for my A & P currently. I'm not young (47), and made the choice that I would rather do something interesting instead of push yet more paper that gets the other guy a raise. I went into the program with the attitude that it was a first step into a skill I had always wanted. The first day one of the instructors said their job was to make sure we didn't do dangerous things (with a big smile), and knew enough to be trained into wherever we ended up working. They weren't about to let anyone think they knew it all after just completing a program.
Many years ago I knew someone that went to ER, but found the fees far too high to consider it. I thought the door was forever closed on the subject. About 10 years ago I went to Chino one day and tried walking in the door of a couple of places to see what it took to start turning wrenches. I figured that folks working in aviation would have a better idea of what was needed than some hack trying to sign me up for schooling. The first place I walked into was downright rude to me. They were noted as doing great work (and they did, their work was great) on some restoration stuff. Soon after, the owner who was so rude was killed, and the business went under. I threw the idea way yet again.
A couple of years ago I was surfing the net and discovered that Art Scholl used to head the Aeronautics program at San Bernardino Valley College. The program still existed, so I went and checked it out. I work nights, and expanding my business into daytime wasn't working...so I figured why not go to school to get my A & P?
I couldn't be happier or more impressed with the instructors and education at the school. I've always been the go to guy for fixing anything for my friends. Gotten stuck doing whatever it took to keep peoples cars going, etc. The program has challeneged me more than I thought possible, and made solid my understanding of theroy of operation on all sorts of things. In the past, I could have figured out a problem, now I can get to it much more directly. I'm having the time of my life learning!
The instructors are GREAT. One started turning wrenches on B-52's way back when, another was Art Scholl's head mechanic. These guys not only know their stuff, they know how to teach it. The lab work for Powerplant includes going through three engines (A65, IO-540, Jacobs) rather than the min. requirement of of one for the FAA. It's all hands on and includes running them on the test stands. We work on things, get educated, get scolded, get yelled at and get an understanding.
The labs for Airframe include doing dope an fabric, a host of sheet metal projects, welding, all sorts of electrical and rebuilds of things like landing gear. If you get to writing up the dreaded B 50 and get less than 300 items on the airframe, you'll be laughed out of the room...and told to go get real.
During the time I've been in the program, a number of folks who started at flashy schools advertised on TV have shown up to try and complete schooling. They ALL are surprised and overwhelmed by the programs here. I have heard tales of an instructor tearing down an engine in front of a class while they sat and watched at one of the schools with pretty TV ads. These tranfers are at first shocked, and then happy when taken to lab and put to work on actual projects.
I have seen a few military folks get their eyes open as to the difference between how they worked in the military and what it means to be an A & P. Most stuck with it, some decided they knew it all already and quit.
I have seen people with no interest at all in aviation become excited about it (So I drag them off to POF airshows to make sure they are addicted for real....). I have seen many, many more figure out they can't cut it and bail out of the program. It scares me that a number of them went into the nursing program at the same school...!
I would advocate any company searching for entry level A & P's to contact them, as I am sure that if a student makes it through this program, they have got a good foundation to work from.
As for students and attitudes: Many younger students these days have been raised in a world of video games and crack codes. They don't have to work and have an easily attained "get around" to advance to another level. Their world says that of you don't have a college degree, you are a useless and ignorant individual of questionable judgement. They have 100% bought the college hype from grade school onwards. In California, nobody is ever allowed to fail (the teachers are held responsible for students who won't work), and so they get to college level and expect it all to be handed to them.
I am working on my Gen Ed classes to turn the A & P into a degree right now. I have learned to expect less than nothing from 95% of students I see. How can you get to a college of any level and not know if Spain is a country or not...or where it is?!?!?!?! How can you compare Colombus to Hitler and be serious about it??!?!? GEEZ!
In my own teaching (the art of Fencing, like in the Olympics...), I have found a steady drop in work ethic over the last 6 or so years. The number of people who take it serious is about the same as what I find in my own classes for the A & P program, about 3 out of every 20. On one hand, it worries me to find such lack of responsibility in the US, on the other hand, that should provide open doors to those who take things serious and aren't afraid to work.
I appreciate the experiences of folks who wrote and their dislike of working for airlines. I respect that, but for myself will be picking and choosing before commiting to whatever my first aviation job might be. At my age I don't stand for monkeyshines at work as long as I used, and have no problem leaving if things aren't right. I simply don't feel I have enough time in life to be abused at a job anymore.
I guess the thing I like about becoming an A & P most is knowing there are a lot of folks as addicted as myslef to things that fly ( or can be made to fly...), and that as upset as we may have become, we can't help but do things like go to far too many airshows, get involved with saving rustheaps better off dead...and spending countless hours waiting for the next amazing post on some obscure warbird or other on groups like this....
This is my first post here, but I've been following the boards for some years now. The A & P thread is close to home and I finally have something to say...
I agree with the first post, and am in school for my A & P currently. I'm not young (47), and made the choice that I would rather do something interesting instead of push yet more paper that gets the other guy a raise. I went into the program with the attitude that it was a first step into a skill I had always wanted. The first day one of the instructors said their job was to make sure we didn't do dangerous things (with a big smile), and knew enough to be trained into wherever we ended up working. They weren't about to let anyone think they knew it all after just completing a program.
Many years ago I knew someone that went to ER, but found the fees far too high to consider it. I thought the door was forever closed on the subject. About 10 years ago I went to Chino one day and tried walking in the door of a couple of places to see what it took to start turning wrenches. I figured that folks working in aviation would have a better idea of what was needed than some hack trying to sign me up for schooling. The first place I walked into was downright rude to me. They were noted as doing great work (and they did, their work was great) on some restoration stuff. Soon after, the owner who was so rude was killed, and the business went under. I threw the idea way yet again.
A couple of years ago I was surfing the net and discovered that Art Scholl used to head the Aeronautics program at San Bernardino Valley College. The program still existed, so I went and checked it out. I work nights, and expanding my business into daytime wasn't working...so I figured why not go to school to get my A & P?
I couldn't be happier or more impressed with the instructors and education at the school. I've always been the go to guy for fixing anything for my friends. Gotten stuck doing whatever it took to keep peoples cars going, etc. The program has challeneged me more than I thought possible, and made solid my understanding of theroy of operation on all sorts of things. In the past, I could have figured out a problem, now I can get to it much more directly. I'm having the time of my life learning!
The instructors are GREAT. One started turning wrenches on B-52's way back when, another was Art Scholl's head mechanic. These guys not only know their stuff, they know how to teach it. The lab work for Powerplant includes going through three engines (A65, IO-540, Jacobs) rather than the min. requirement of of one for the FAA. It's all hands on and includes running them on the test stands. We work on things, get educated, get scolded, get yelled at and get an understanding.
The labs for Airframe include doing dope an fabric, a host of sheet metal projects, welding, all sorts of electrical and rebuilds of things like landing gear. If you get to writing up the dreaded B 50 and get less than 300 items on the airframe, you'll be laughed out of the room...and told to go get real.
During the time I've been in the program, a number of folks who started at flashy schools advertised on TV have shown up to try and complete schooling. They ALL are surprised and overwhelmed by the programs here. I have heard tales of an instructor tearing down an engine in front of a class while they sat and watched at one of the schools with pretty TV ads. These tranfers are at first shocked, and then happy when taken to lab and put to work on actual projects.
I have seen a few military folks get their eyes open as to the difference between how they worked in the military and what it means to be an A & P. Most stuck with it, some decided they knew it all already and quit.
I have seen people with no interest at all in aviation become excited about it (So I drag them off to POF airshows to make sure they are addicted for real....). I have seen many, many more figure out they can't cut it and bail out of the program. It scares me that a number of them went into the nursing program at the same school...!
I would advocate any company searching for entry level A & P's to contact them, as I am sure that if a student makes it through this program, they have got a good foundation to work from.
As for students and attitudes: Many younger students these days have been raised in a world of video games and crack codes. They don't have to work and have an easily attained "get around" to advance to another level. Their world says that of you don't have a college degree, you are a useless and ignorant individual of questionable judgement. They have 100% bought the college hype from grade school onwards. In California, nobody is ever allowed to fail (the teachers are held responsible for students who won't work), and so they get to college level and expect it all to be handed to them.
I am working on my Gen Ed classes to turn the A & P into a degree right now. I have learned to expect less than nothing from 95% of students I see. How can you get to a college of any level and not know if Spain is a country or not...or where it is?!?!?!?! How can you compare Colombus to Hitler and be serious about it??!?!? GEEZ!
In my own teaching (the art of Fencing, like in the Olympics...), I have found a steady drop in work ethic over the last 6 or so years. The number of people who take it serious is about the same as what I find in my own classes for the A & P program, about 3 out of every 20. On one hand, it worries me to find such lack of responsibility in the US, on the other hand, that should provide open doors to those who take things serious and aren't afraid to work.
I appreciate the experiences of folks who wrote and their dislike of working for airlines. I respect that, but for myself will be picking and choosing before commiting to whatever my first aviation job might be. At my age I don't stand for monkeyshines at work as long as I used, and have no problem leaving if things aren't right. I simply don't feel I have enough time in life to be abused at a job anymore.
I guess the thing I like about becoming an A & P most is knowing there are a lot of folks as addicted as myslef to things that fly ( or can be made to fly...), and that as upset as we may have become, we can't help but do things like go to far too many airshows, get involved with saving rustheaps better off dead...and spending countless hours waiting for the next amazing post on some obscure warbird or other on groups like this....
Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:08 pm
RandolphB wrote:Howdy,
This is my first post here, but I've been following the boards for some years now. The A & P thread is close to home and I finally have something to say...
I guess the thing I like about becoming an A & P most is knowing there are a lot of folks as addicted as myslef to things that fly ( or can be made to fly...), and that as upset as we may have become, we can't help but do things like go to far too many airshows, get involved with saving rustheaps better off dead...and spending countless hours waiting for the next amazing post on some obscure warbird or other on groups like this....
Randolph-
BAM! For a first posting you said it, and beautifully... I have passed along this entire discussion to members of the staff of the A&P school I am employed by. Also, I have been spending hours trying to figure ways I can personally improve the program- more useful discussions and demonstrations, rather than the blasted "Power Point" lectures I am currently stuck with. Performance and knowledge based testing, rather than simply following the course of "Prepware" based multiple guess testing, etc. I have discussed with my current students ways of improving their experience. Nobody has said "Make the course easier". Most said essentially "Challenge us more" and "Make it more interesting".
I have placed with my supervisor a list of ideas and concepts- not all easily done- to try to enhance the experience, as well as the employability of the students. One of those involves paid/unpaid part time internships, to get their foot in the door. However, I stated the criteria should be based on academic progress and punctuality, as well as basic knowledge...
I want two things- My students to get the best education I can give them, and My students to be the best mechanics they can be from the start.
Oh- part of my problem is that I am teaching the night students. To me, there is no difference between a night student and a day student. To them, there is, and they are special, because they work during they day in a lot of cases, and this cuts into their time... I tell them the same story- true- about one of the students I went to class with for 18 solid months: The guy lived an hour away, and drove in each day. After school, he went home for an hour then to work, (3 jobs, as a supervisor for a cleaning crew) which he finished around 4 AM. Went home took a nap and came back to school- ON TIME & EARLY every day. The only days he missed were when he got very sick one day(like I did) and when he had to take his son to the doctors for what turned out to be a brain tumor. His son was undergoing major, life altering/threatening brain surgery- and he was in powerplant class! HE Was Dedicated. He is now, as I mentioned in a previous posting, a Lead at Agusta Helicopter. I would work happily with him at any point. He did have experience in helicopters in another country, but needed to get his A&P to work in his new one... I tell my students all the same thing- beat his record, and maybe I'll listen to your whining.
Gotta go, and read through a mountain of makeup assignments for the students who decided they had better things to do than attend my classes last term...
Robbie
Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:40 pm
If you have some free time on a Saturday, drop by my hangar at Chino!RandolphB wrote:This is my first post here, but I've been following the boards for some years now. The A & P thread is close to home and I finally have something to say...
Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:51 pm
mike furline wrote:I'm very confident in saying the majority of United employees are pretty bitter and fed up.
Mike,
You sound like my father in law. He was so thankful to get a early retirement offer from UAL a few years back even though he lost his shirt with the whole no raises/ESOP deal. Luckily he got out before it hit rock bottom.
Are the UAL pilots are as bitter, or is it just the mechanics?
Jim
Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:31 pm
The pilots are extremely bitter. My dad talks of almost nothing else, he lost almost 1.5 Million. His entire retirement down the tubes.
It really sounds like the Community college schools are the way to go. I used to work for the same guy Robbie does and I would be sooo pissed off if I was a student of that A&P school chain.
But hey, they owner has to pay for his warbirds somehow....
It really sounds like the Community college schools are the way to go. I used to work for the same guy Robbie does and I would be sooo pissed off if I was a student of that A&P school chain.
But hey, they owner has to pay for his warbirds somehow....
Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:50 pm
Me getting a shot in before I pull up to gate guess what Airline?
Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:54 pm
Brannif?