Doolittle Raid B-25B Questions?

[Ken]

The best way to verify the source of the above "Hornet takeoff" photo is to simply watch the movie again and look for that exact scene.

But, since I don't have the DVD handy, I'll say that there are there are a number of things that don't add up regardless: colored cowl rings, what looks like the nose .30 installed instead of stowed, the photographer's perspective, the apparent low altitude at the end of the deck ...

... and the real clincher ... I think I can see the late style teardrop tail skid. All the B-models had the un-faired triangular tail skid. That, alone, would make it a Hollywood still frame.

Ken

[Ken]

Scroll through these pix from the National Archives:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/even ... oolt-a.htm

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/even ... dooltl.htm

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/08.htm

No colored cowl rings. No (visible) .30's installed in a nose socket. And a curious feature, they all seem to have a pane or port taped over on the nose glass. The third link has a couple shots I'd not seen before.

[RyanShort1]

The best way to verify the source of the above "Hornet takeoff" photo is to simply watch the movie again and look for that exact scene.

But, since I don't have the DVD handy, I'll say that there are there are a number of things that don't add up regardless: colored cowl rings, what looks like the nose .30 installed instead of stowed, the photographer's perspective, the apparent low altitude at the end of the deck ...

... and the real clincher ... I think I can see the late style teardrop tail skid. All the B-models had the un-faired triangular tail skid. That, alone, would make it a Hollywood still frame.

Ken

That, and compare it with the KNOWN shot taken from the port bow side of the flight deck, as well as the photo below and notice how many people are visible.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020846b.jpg

There just aren't enough people visible on or around the island for that shot to be authentic.

Ryan

Last edited by RyanShort1 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[gary1954]

Well, I pose this.
Would the Air Force, have in their collection of "Official" Photographs, Stills from the motion picture 30 Seconds over Tokyo as Official photographs?
I believe this would be unlikely.
Having just watched the clips from the Tokyo Raid, I agree that I have yet to see a colored cowling on the aircraft seen launched, or on any of the few that are near the front, I can't get my old eyes to see further back, but none of us can, based on the brief
clip(s) say that there was not one plane that had colored cowlings.
I did observe that in the clip(s), that in a couple of shots prior to the launch, that the film captured and semi-calm sea when the Navy is firing on the Japanese Picket Boat (yes), then the sea kicks up for and during the launch (yes), so, is the firing on the Picket Boat, from 30 Seconds Over Tokyo?? I think not.
So, as the photo of subject aircraft, is in the Air University of the Air Force, I hardly believe that the University would add a movie still to the collection of offical photographs of the Tokyo Raid, as these are after all "Historical" photographs.

[RyanShort1]

Well, I pose this.
Would the Air Force, have in their collection of "Official" Photographs, Stills from the motion picture 30 Seconds over Tokyo as Official photographs?
I believe this would be unlikely.
Having just watched the clips from the Tokyo Raid, I agree that I have yet to see a colored cowling on the aircraft seen launched, or on any of the few that are near the front, I can't get my old eyes to see further back, but none of us can, based on the brief
clip(s) say that there was not one plane that had colored cowlings.
I did observe that in the clip(s), that in a couple of shots prior to the launch, that the film captured and semi-calm sea when the Navy is firing on the Japanese Picket Boat (yes), then the sea kicks up for and during the launch (yes), so, is the firing on the Picket Boat, from 30 Seconds Over Tokyo?? I think not.
So, as the photo of subject aircraft, is in the Air University of the Air Force, I hardly believe that the University would add a movie still to the collection of offical photographs of the Tokyo Raid, as these are after all "Historical" photographs.

I'm pretty sure that some of those "historical" photos are photos that may have been given to them at a later time from private collections as well as the originals. After all, most of the original photos were actually Navy.

Ryan

[gary1954]

Well, I pose this.
Would the Air Force, have in their collection of "Official" Photographs, Stills from the motion picture 30 Seconds over Tokyo as Official photographs?
I believe this would be unlikely.
Having just watched the clips from the Tokyo Raid, I agree that I have yet to see a colored cowling on the aircraft seen launched, or on any of the few that are near the front, I can't get my old eyes to see further back, but none of us can, based on the brief
clip(s) say that there was not one plane that had colored cowlings.
I did observe that in the clip(s), that in a couple of shots prior to the launch, that the film captured and semi-calm sea when the Navy is firing on the Japanese Picket Boat (yes), then the sea kicks up for and during the launch (yes), so, is the firing on the Picket Boat, from 30 Seconds Over Tokyo?? I think not.
So, as the photo of subject aircraft, is in the Air University of the Air Force, I hardly believe that the University would add a movie still to the collection of offical photographs of the Tokyo Raid, as these are after all "Historical" photographs.

I'm pretty sure that some of those "historical" photos are photos that may have been given to them at a later time from private collections as well as the originals. After all, most of the original photos were actually Navy.

Ryan

Yup, ya got me there with the Navy thing, and it is true that the University does acquire photos from private collections, but....Those photos are specified as being from such and such collection

[rwdfresno]

I have been in contact with Stan Cohen and a couple other historians who are helping me validate the locations of the photographs. Ryan, do you know the source of the photos you posted that you beleive are in Minnesota? So far form the data I have I think the first photo is in Minnesota at Mid-Continent Airlines as you thought and the second is at Alameda but not 100% yet on that one as I can't prove what building it is. I'd love to see a better qualitiy number 2 picture. I did find an interesting picture of the B-25Bs parked in a fenced off area of ramp at Mid-Continent, but I can't post it at the moment as I don't have permission from the source yet.

Ryan

[RyanShort1]

I have been in contact with Stan Cohen and a couple other historians who are helping me validate the locations of the photographs. Ryan, do you know the source of the photos you posted that you beleive are in Minnesota? So far form the data I have I think the first photo is in Minnesota at Mid-Continent Airlines as you thought and the second is at Alameda but not 100% yet on that one as I can't prove what building it is. I'd love to see a better qualitiy number 2 picture. I did find an interesting picture of the B-25Bs parked in a fenced off area of ramp at Mid-Continent, but I can't post it at the moment as I don't have permission from the source yet.

Ryan

I don't know the source of those two Mid-Continent photos, but Stan might know, because he published them in Destination Tokyo... The other guys to talk to include Ted Briscoe of California - not sure where right now.
I'd like to talk with you via email about the fenced-off picture.

Ryan

[RyanShort1]

I'm pretty sure that some of those "historical" photos are photos that may have been given to them at a later time from private collections as well as the originals. After all, most of the original photos were actually Navy.

Ryan

Yup, ya got me there with the Navy thing, and it is true that the University does acquire photos from private collections, but....Those photos are specified as being from such and such collection

Not all are accurately captioned, however! Even the Air Force Photo collection in the National Archives is far from infallible with original captions. One of their photos labeled as B-25s of the Doolittle Raiders on the way to Tokyo clearly appears to actually be Helldivers, or some other Navy aircraft in formation!

Ryan

[gary1954]

yes I saw that, as well as a B-25J in another photo captioned as a P-51

[The Inspector]

Another thing to keep in mind is that during the war, black and white film was pretty slow due to rationing of silver used to record the images so things that are strongly underlit or backlit will not always show every little nuance of the markings or shading contrast, go back to WW1 before PAN-ORTHOGRAPHIC film and thats why US flags look reversed (dark stars and transparent blue field), the film worked backwards to what your eye saw and stars and chrome yellow wings came up reversed the wing star was in a very light blue circle and the yellow very very dark gray and thats why photos of plains indians make them all look like minstrels with very black features.

Everyone has become so euphoric about digital photography and the wonderful things you can do with a PHOTOSHOP program these days, remember that since KODAK stopped making KODACHROME recently you probably will never again see the color saturation and details you can find in WW2 picture archives and digital won't enlarge beyond a certain point, blow something up enough thats digital and all you get is more space between the pixels and grainier and blurrier pictures, you should see the 'shingles' FRONTIER Airlines uses to do their vertical fins, Up close (arms length) all you see are blurry squiggles and random blotches, it's not until you get some space away that suddenly you see a fox or bobcat picture. I stand by what I said on page 1, this is a movie 'grab' because of the 'aircraft' still on deck, anyone have photos of the Doolittle Raiders on the ship with white or yellow painted vertical fins??

[Steve Nelson]

Aside from markings/detail anomolies with the aircraft, look at the perspective from which the photo was taken..just forward of the bow, and just below deck level. In real life, how could you possibly get a camera in that position while underway? And it's not a telephoto shot..the perspective would be more compressed. I think it's pretty obviously a still of a miniature shot from the movie. For the takeoff sequence, they intercut some original footage, some new footage of real B-25s shot on a soundstage, and miniature footage. It still looks pretty darned good, even by today's standards. The fact that a miniature shot from WWII can be mistaken for the real thing is a tribute to the filmakers' commitment to realism.

SN

[Pathfinder]

Straight out of MGM....the movie sequence is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LG9z_-N ... B4&index=7

The screen cap shot under discussion occurs at 2:46/3:13

Rear screen; matte shots and other special effects are marvelous innovations that are so brilliant for their time that their cutting-edge-ness is lost on the modern generation. Dude..where's the digital color saturation knob...?

[gary1954]

As we have observed the absence of personnel near the bridge or whatevere its called, please note that looking at the photo, we see alledged guns pointed out to the alledged sea. I believe that I see an alledged person looling our to sea, and the other looking over the flight deck.

[Pathfinder]

Just noticed reviewing the official stills (third group link above) that the port wing upper national insignia does not have a meatball...