Hard Landing for Beech Jet at EAA - Jack Roush MERGED TOPICS

[John Cotter]

I Love the calm unperturbed controller voices.........."Lake go around, disabled aircraft on the runway" like they see it everyday. Who knows maybe they do, you would think there would be just a little emotion in their tranmissions!

You mention the calmness of the controllers in this accident, I listened to the ATC tapes from the BA 777 that lost power on both engines a while back and those controllers very calm on the radio too. Must be ice in their water coolers!!

[Ken]

I Love the calm unperturbed controller voices like they see it everyday. Who knows maybe they do, you would think there would be just a little emotion in their tranmissions!

Might be off base on the source, but it seems like it's either Ernest Gann or Richard Bach who mentions that the worst injury a controller can suffer on the job is falling from their chair. Gann does mention something similar regarding rules (paraphrased) ... that rules of paper and ink fail to cushion the meeting of metal and stone.

I assume the ATC folks who get to work Airventure each year are among the most experienced - and probably have seen their share before. And it does the rest of the airplanes still airborne no good if ATC wigs out.

[mustanglover]

I agree that the Pilots number on job is to successfully Fly The Airplane....

The controllers seem to be in disagreement with the call made at the last minute....

http://www.avweb.com/other/oshcrash.mp3


But the wreck does seem to indicate a bit of Get-home-itis' cousin, land-now-itis, on the part of Jack.

I believe if you listen again, it seems to be Jack who asks "Is 6 sierra going to be good with this?"

The controller says "Affirmative"

And then Jack says "I don't think so"

I also thought it was 2 controllers, but something clicked yesterday when I listened to it again. I started backing it up and listening to him talking before and unless there is a controller with a voice almost identical to his, I think that is him talking.

[John Beyl]

I agree that the Pilots number on job is to successfully Fly The Airplane....

The controllers seem to be in disagreement with the call made at the last minute....

http://www.avweb.com/other/oshcrash.mp3


But the wreck does seem to indicate a bit of Get-home-itis' cousin, land-now-itis, on the part of Jack.

I believe if you listen again, it seems to be Jack who asks "Is 6 sierra going to be good with this?"

The controller says "Affirmative"

And then Jack says "I don't think so"

I also thought it was 2 controllers, but something clicked yesterday when I listened to it again. I started backing it up and listening to him talking before and unless there is a controller with a voice almost identical to his, I think that is him talking.

Chris,

I don't believe it was Jack asking is this going to be alright with 6JR. It wouldn't seem a logical thing for Jack to be asking himself over the radio if the arrangement was OK with him. I agree it sounds an awful lot like him and the background noise is the same as in the other trasmissions Jack made. The quip, "I don't think so" is definitely sounds like the other transmissions Jack made earlier in the sound bite. So, who asked that question? Was it another controller in the tower?

John

[Sabremech]

Silly question, but who is 6 Sierra? Jack's premier is N6JR. This soundbite has a Premier in it, but is it Jack's voice we are hearing or another airplane inbound and communicating or a controller misidentifying Jack's N number?
David

[marine air]

The proper call sign typically would have been "November-six-Juliet- Sierra" or "Premier November-six-juliet-romeo, or even just "six-juliet-romeo".
I sometimes fly a King AIr, N8GU, when we use "eight golf Uniform', they sometimes ask us 'to use ur full call sign, so I typically do the initial check in as "King AIr November 8 golf uniform.
Mr. Roush was using "6JR" and he asks the controller "are you sure" controller "yep", Mr Roush "I don't think so".
Notice how controller was identifying aircraft by type "Lake" or "Cirrus" you will want to go back andreview the VFR arrival procedures for the Oshlosh airport.
Mr Roush left Michigan IFR. flew a straight line through the solid squall line thunderstorm (presumably on autopilot) then over flew the lake, cancelling IFR about 50 miles from the shoreline, presumably to enter the VFR arrival into Oshkosh.
THis would have sequenced him in with other VFR types .

[Bill Greenwood]

For the most part the controllers at Oskosh for EAA are great. They sound like they actually like airplanes and are glad to be there and glad we are flying something interesting in there or at least coming to the event. It seems like they are there to help rather than to try to find something that some pilot is not doing perfect.

Unfortunately it is not that way in much of the rest of the world.

Here at my home airport there is a lot of jet traffic. The controllers have their own parking lot where they usually use less than half of the reserved spaces. We never see them in person face to face, never get to know them as people like some years ago.

[Sabremech]

Hi Marine air, I know aviation phonetics and find it interesting that Jack would accept 6 sierra when clearly that's not his aircraft n-number. Might seem trivial, but with the number of airplanes coming into and out of Osh, it might lead to some confusion. Just my .02

David

[Al Moore]

IMHO the controller is just slurring the JR in 6JR which makes is sound like Sierra. (I said JR quickly to myself and I can get it to sound similar to Sierra, lol). Also Premier as in the aircraft type is mentioned and when said quickly on the radio and slurred sounds like Sierra a bit too.

[Ken]

I'm not able to access the audio with my connection, but I easily imagine the blurring of pronunciation. You may not believe me, but there have been a number of instances where "Southwest" and "Delta" have sounded similar. This has been exacerbated by some pilots and controllers who intentionally say "Delta's 123" instead of "Delta 123".

The results come out like "Saa-was" and "Dawl-aws" ... hard to imagine until you find yourself in the seat cocking your ear to discern what you just heard. Graduate level radio work can sometimes require an almost musical ear.

Not the way it's supposed to be, but sometimes how it is.

Ken

[warbird1]

I'm not able to access the audio with my connection, but I easily imagine the blurring of pronunciation. You may not believe me, but there have been a number of instances where "Southwest" and "Delta" have sounded similar. This has been exacerbated by some pilots and controllers who intentionally say "Delta's 123" instead of "Delta 123".

The results come out like "Saa-was" and "Dawl-aws" ... hard to imagine until you find yourself in the seat cocking your ear to discern what you just heard. Graduate level radio work can sometimes require an almost musical ear.

Not the way it's supposed to be, but sometimes how it is.

Ken

I agree Ken. Sometimes when working in an ultra-busy place like in New York/Los Angeles/Boston, you tend to use the "context" of a radio call instead, even if the ATC controller uses the incorrect call sign. If a frequency is super busy, and you know if would destroy the flow of information coming from ATC because they are talking so fast with no pauses, I will answer with my correct call sign if I know for sure that the ATC controller meant it was me based on context and situational awareness. This saves time for the controller, instead of going through the "time-wasting" process of not answering the radio call, or perhaps saying "verify that was for blah, blah, blah", which can waste precious seconds for the over-worked ATC controller who is on the edge of "losing control" because they are working so many airplanes at once. It's just a technique and I'm definitely not the only one who uses it. Again, like Ken says, not the way it's supposed to be, but until ATC gets it's funding for the Next Gen system, they are doing the best that they can given their limited resources/manning levels. Perhaps the conversation between Jack and the ATC controller was a similar circumstance here.

[Matt Gunsch]

No matter what the controller said, how he said it, it all comes down to the pilot in command, no one forced him to try to "make" that landing. All pilots need to know the magic word and use it when needed. The magic word is UNABLE, can you say that UN ABLE, see you know magic, as saying that word will force the controller to deal with you on your terms.

[warbird1]

No matter what the controller said, how he said it, it all comes down to the pilot in command, no one forced him to try to "make" that landing. All pilots need to know the magic word and use it when needed. The magic word is UNABLE, can you say that UN ABLE, see you know magic, as saying that word will force the controller to deal with you on your terms.

Well said and I agree 100% completely. That's exactly what I stated in an earlier response. It is interesting though to analyze the conversation on the ATC tapes, even though I don't think it has any bearing on what caused the accident.

[mustangdriver]

Matt is correct. An instruction is only mandatory when it has been accepted. Unable is the correct way to flag the instruction as something you either can't do or do not feel comfortable doing. I have only been a controller for about a year now, but before this I worked on medical helos. On that job there was no way to prepare for what you would see every day. You had to keep your head moving all of the time. I handled a few inflight emergencies there, as well as trying to find a fast solution to a problem in seconds. You can't lose your head in that game. I feel that there was no better training for this job then working on the helos first. My first month checked out in the tower I had a Beech jet with smoke in the cockpit. By the time they got it to the field they had no flaps or reversers. When they touched down I called out distance remaining as the rolled down the runway. They came to a stop after using the parking brake and melting some tires. After words I got some kind words from the pilots that said it was nice to hear a calm voice on the radio. I had the same thing said time and my crew time and time again at the helo place as well. It sounds cheesy but there is much to be said by reading Gene Kranz's book. Those guys were the top guns of doing just this.
I have only been a controller for a little under a year. I am still finding that I learn stuff every day. The crews working KOSH tower during the show are the tip of the sword. It will be years before I can earn my pink shirt, and I do plan on getting one.
I agree with Bill that a major problem is the lack of face to face interaction between pilots and controllers. I am lucky in that my airport is very much a community and has this interaction. People ask if I ever want to go to an international airport. They are surprised when I say no. I enjoy general aviation, and that is one of the reasons.

[warbird1]

Matt is correct. An instruction is only mandatory when it has been accepted. Unable is the correct way to flag the instruction as something you either can't do or do not feel comfortable doing. I have only been a controller for about a year now, but before this I worked on medical helos. On that job there was no way to prepare for what you would see every day. You had to keep your head moving all of the time. I handled a few inflight emergencies there, as well as trying to find a fast solution to a problem in seconds. You can't lose your head in that game. I feel that there was no better training for this job then working on the helos first. My first month checked out in the tower I had a Beech jet with smoke in the cockpit. By the time they got it to the field they had no flaps or reversers. When they touched down I called out distance remaining as the rolled down the runway. They came to a stop after using the parking brake and melting some tires. After words I got some kind words from the pilots that said it was nice to hear a calm voice on the radio. I had the same thing said time and my crew time and time again at the helo place as well. It sounds cheesy but there is much to be said by reading Gene Kranz's book. Those guys were the top guns of doing just this.
I have only been a controller for a little under a year. I am still finding that I learn stuff every day. The crews working KOSH tower during the show are the tip of the sword. It will be years before I can earn my pink shirt, and I do plan on getting one.
I agree with Bill that a major problem is the lack of face to face interaction between pilots and controllers. I am lucky in that my airport is very much a community and has this interaction. People ask if I ever want to go to an international airport. They are surprised when I say no. I enjoy general aviation, and that is one of the reasons.

Excellent response, Chris! That is what aviation is all about - Teamwork to accomplish the common goal, mission, or flight safely, effectively, and efficiently. It's too bad that many other pilots and ATC controllers don't have that mindset. Part of the problem is that one side doesn't know the other's capabilities and capacities to accomplish certain tasks. At the airlines, I have had ATC controllers ride on my jumpseat many times in the past. I always get a kick when they are shocked when some of their fellow ATC brethren give us a crossing restriction that requires us to use speedbrake and "redline" the aircraft just to make it. Sometimes they say, "I had no idea". That's what it's all about - knowing each other's jobs and having familiarity with some of the other half's environment, constraints, considerations and restrictions.

Good on ya' Chris. It sounds like you have the "Big Picture"!