NTSB Releases some Reports on GG Reno Crash from 2011

51fixer · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:35 am

Badman wrote:

My recollection was Voodoo's elevator trim tab failure was caused by the crew putting speed tap over the gap between the tab and elevator that caused flutter of the tab. The fix was to not install speed tape in this area.

IIRC they had run fairings along the fuselage as extensions of the stock wing trailing edge. These acted to change the pitch trim required and lead to the failure.
I don't recall how much more there was to it but I recall Skip did some testing after that incident and the fairings were removed.

Badman · **Joined:** Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:05 pm **Posts:** 69

51fixer wrote:

Badman wrote:

My recollection was Voodoo's elevator trim tab failure was caused by the crew putting speed tap over the gap between the tab and elevator that caused flutter of the tab. The fix was to not install speed tape in this area.

IIRC they had run fairings along the fuselage as extensions of the stock wing trailing edge. These acted to change the pitch trim required and lead to the failure.
I don't recall how much more there was to it but I recall Skip did some testing after that incident and the fairings were removed.

I'm not sure the wing strakes you're referring to had anything to do with the elevator trim tab failure at the start of that race in 1998. I remember reading Skip's infamous report in a magazine on this and as I recall the orginal wing strakes Skip flew were closer to the size found on Strega at the time. After that testing, the strakes were simply reduced in size - not removed and I think this occured in 1997 - before the 1998 tab failure (I'm going purely off memory here and I may have the sequence messed up). Look at Voodoo pix from 2011 and you'll see the wing strakes are still there. I would expect if the larger strakes were the cause of the failure then Strega, Sumthin Else, Dago Red, and Precious Metal would have experienced that problem too, and of course GG really had no strakes at all.

marine air · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:27 pm

I think the Whittingtons had it right when they put an H-model on a modified D airframe. THe original "Precious Metal." What did they know that seems to have been forgotten about a D model tail?

51fixer · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:34 pm

marine air wrote:

I think the Whittingtons had it right when they put an H-model on a modified D airframe. THe original "Precious Metal." What did they know that seems to have been forgotten about a D model tail?

If they were trend setters, why haven't they been copied in the past 30 years?
P-51s regularly fly 30+ mph faster than it raced.
The H Model tail installed on it was originally put on by Gary Levitz when he owned it. The Whittington"s flew it until until it splashed in the ocean.

Glenn Wegman · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:59 pm

Was put on by Ralph Payne when Gary owned it.

51fixer · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:13 am

Badman wrote:

51fixer wrote:

Badman wrote:

My recollection was Voodoo's elevator trim tab failure was caused by the crew putting speed tap over the gap between the tab and elevator that caused flutter of the tab. The fix was to not install speed tape in this area.

IIRC they had run fairings along the fuselage as extensions of the stock wing trailing edge. These acted to change the pitch trim required and lead to the failure.
I don't recall how much more there was to it but I recall Skip did some testing after that incident and the fairings were removed.

I'm not sure the wing strakes you're referring to had anything to do with the elevator trim tab failure at the start of that race in 1998. I remember reading Skip's infamous report in a magazine on this and as I recall the orginal wing strakes Skip flew were closer to the size found on Strega at the time. After that testing, the strakes were simply reduced in size - not removed and I think this occured in 1997 - before the 1998 tab failure (I'm going purely off memory here and I may have the sequence messed up). Look at Voodoo pix from 2011 and you'll see the wing strakes are still there. I would expect if the larger strakes were the cause of the failure then Strega, Sumthin Else, Dago Red, and Precious Metal would have experienced that problem too, and of course GG really had no strakes at all.

The strakes were removed after the event as they were installed in line with the flaps which had been mis-rigged too high. At higher speeds they acted to pitch the nose up. The trim on the elevator was inputted against all this. Thus the excess trim which led to the failure.
There is copy cat installations done in this industry. It doesn't mean it is done exactly the same or has the same result.

marine air · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:21 pm

I think the reason no one else tried putting an H model tail on an earlier model mustang hasn't been repeated is because there were never any available. Now the expertise exists to have one scratch built, which of course, could be improved upon from the military design.

51fixer · **Posted:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:59 pm

marine air wrote:

I think the reason no one else tried putting an H model tail on an earlier model mustang hasn't been repeated is because there were never any available. Now the expertise exists to have one scratch built, which of course, could be improved upon from the military design.

Cavalier or Trans Florida extended the Verticals of -Ds on a number of their rebuilds/conversions for both civil and South American supplied P-51s in the 60s/ early 70s. NACA had a few P-51Ds with extended verticals going back into the late 40s.
The reason they aren't put on all the P-51 racers at Reno are they aren't needed. Thats not to say they won't make it more stable but they are already stable enough to routinely go 450 - 500+ mph.
Anytime to add more area that connects with the air you create drag. If the drag you induce is needed and makes you go faster it is an acceptable trade off. If it is just more drag and it doesn't help you go faster it will slow you down.

Yak3 · **Joined:** Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:23 am **Posts:** 191

I recall hearing a good number of years ago that a Whittington owned P-51 was ditched (Gulf of Mexico?) after fuel or engine problems. Which one was it? Was she recovered?

Thanks

51fixer · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:35 am

Yak3 wrote:

I recall hearing a good number of years ago that a Whittington owned P-51 was ditched (Gulf of Mexico?) after fuel or engine problems. Which one was it? Was she recovered?

Thanks

It was a-D with the Merlin IIRC and was recovered AFAIK.
It was reported to be the orig PM but they have done some VooDoo things with IDs.
I also recall something about CFIT or CFIW in this case. He came to his senses holding on to a chunk of foam that is installed in the fuel cells to reduce risks of explosion on impact. No one knew where he was. He was out there a long time as I recall.
Sometime around 1990.

Ken · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:50 am

51fixer wrote:

There are some obvious issues involved here that we have to look at as a horrible event that we now have to use to learn a lesson in operating these racers.

Right on. Actually, I'll say it's a lesson for all aircraft owners, operators, pilots, and mechanics. The basic stuff in AC 43-13, especially Ch 7 on fasteners, torques, etc applies.

I'm an aircraft owner, pilot, and A&P and this applies directly to me. The attention to detail required to properly maintain & operate any airplane is, at times, daunting ... and that's simply trying to maintain a level where I eliminate as many "known" issues as possible to be in a position to successfully defeat any "unknowns" that may arise. Despite my best efforts, there always have, and always will be unknowns; a birdstrike at low level, FOD on the runway left from the last airplane, whatever.

The chain of events theory is alive and well - all I can do is to try to engage in a never-ending "whack-a-mole" action to break the chain's links as quickly as they arise. Missing any only allows it to be available to manifest at an inopportune time - whether you fly a Cub or an Unlimited racer.

Avweb.com has this editorial:

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwe ... 267-1.html

Ken

bipe215 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:47 am

51fixer wrote:

Yak3 wrote:

I recall hearing a good number of years ago that a Whittington owned P-51 was ditched (Gulf of Mexico?) after fuel or engine problems. Which one was it? Was she recovered?

Thanks

It was a-D with the Merlin IIRC and was recovered AFAIK.
It was reported to be the orig PM but they have done some VooDoo things with IDs.
I also recall something about CFIT or CFIW in this case. He came to his senses holding on to a chunk of foam that is installed in the fuel cells to reduce risks of explosion on impact. No one knew where he was. He was out there a long time as I recall.
Sometime around 1990.

Is this it?

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 2413&key=1

snj-5 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:01 am

bipe215 wrote:

Is this it?

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 2413&key=1

Words fail me....

Bela P. Havasreti

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2940

Didnt the Wittingtons loose a F9F Cougar in the Gulf too? IIRC no trace of the pilot or plane was ever found...

Red Baaron · **Joined:** Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:54 pm **Posts:** 98

Warbirdnerd wrote:

Didnt the Wittingtons loose a F9F Cougar in the Gulf too? IIRC no trace of the pilot or plane was ever found...

He owned the airplane I think but he wasn't the pilot. His name was John Verdi. I don't remember when the crash was but I was pertty young and like you said, I don't think a trace of anything was ever found.

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NTSB Releases some Reports on GG Reno Crash from 2011

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