Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:21 pm
It looks like Corrosion and cracking was the cause. I told you ! Damm I'm good! Been there seen that! Broken-wrench!Raven wrote:Hi BR,
Thanks for the input. Do you have or can tie down details of the crash you allude to? All seaplanes leak to some degree. In the present circs, we don't want to speculate here about what level is unaceptable.
As regards your second point, fair comment, and you talk from first-hand experience. However that doesn't change the fact that Chalks were mandated to take steps to protect their aircraft. They did. Something (possibly corrosion, possibly something else) caused the aircraft to fail in a catestrophic manner that we don't have enough details to be sure about. Therefore something unexpected or hidden caught these poor people out.
It's certain that if Chalks had seen the problem coming they would have taken steps to prevent this accident.
Generalisations on corrosion in the area and wages set the scene, but aren't answers to the specific - that's the NSTB's call.
If you were running an operation would you appreciate comments that can be read as their aircraft are all corroded and their wrenches are badly paid and therefore incompetent? It might be generally true, but unless it's specifically correct it's not helpful and heading towards libel.
I appreciate your posts, BW, but it would probably help if we waited for a bit more hard data before diagnosing the answer.
http://www.aero-news.net/news/commair.c ... &Dynamic=1
Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:15 am
BR - 20 dead.
If you can feel happy in self congratulation at a time and in a situation like this I have noting to say to a person with an attitude like yours. I no longer have any interest in a dialogue with you in this area.
Opinion on PPrune ( http://www.pprune.org.uk/ in forum "Rumours & News"):
For those who are interested in a varying degrees of qualified and unqualified comment, I recommend the PRune thread above "Seaplane down off Miami Beach" which has links to photographs of these fractures.
Factually:
If you can feel happy in self congratulation at a time and in a situation like this I have noting to say to a person with an attitude like yours. I no longer have any interest in a dialogue with you in this area.
Opinion on PPrune ( http://www.pprune.org.uk/ in forum "Rumours & News"):
The fracture photos point to stress raisers from holes, brackets or other drillings. Corrosion played no part whatever in this one.
For those who are interested in a varying degrees of qualified and unqualified comment, I recommend the PRune thread above "Seaplane down off Miami Beach" which has links to photographs of these fractures.
Factually:
News from Avweb reporter.
December 22, 2005
Cracks Found In Crashed Mallard's Spar
By Russ Niles
Newswriter, Editor
Investigators have found a major fatigue crack in the spar of the wing that separated from a Chalk's Ocean Airways turboprop Mallard on takeoff from Miami on Monday. The wing was recovered Tuesday and fatigue was quickly apparent. "We've seen fatigue. We don't know why that fatigue appeared. That is what we're trying to determine," Mark Rosenker, acting chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told reporters Wednesday morning. "This crack appears to extend through a majority of the spar at the location of the separation." A total of 19 passengers, most of them from the Bahamas, and the pilot died. Rosenker suggested the crack may have been hard to spot on a routine inspection. "Inspection maybe would have found that [metal fatigue], but there would have had to have been a very serious type of inspection to have understood it and found it," he said. The airline has suspended regular service but airline officials say there is still strong demand for flights and they hope to resume service by Friday. Chalk's has been in operation since 1919 and had three Mallards before Monday's crash.
Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:11 am
"If you can feel happy in self congratulation at a time and in a situation like this I have noting to say to a person with an attitude like yours. I no longer have any interest in a dialogue with you in this area."
It is not about being happy! It is about knowing my job and maintaining aircraft. It's Ok! Your not at my level! We really can't communicate because I been there done or seen that. My info came from the NTSB web site so there is no need to refrence your rumor web site. That's why you don't pull aircraft out of the ocean and try to fly them. Corrosion is like a tooth cavity that looks good on the surface. Rotton to the core. The only way to find something like that is pull the whole spar out, Strip it and visually look at it or use Eddie current, X RAY, or die penetrant if you can, "Which I am qualified to a Level 2". All rivets or Hylocks I put in a spar section are "Rotto Peined if required to stress relive the hole" treated, primed and shot in with PRC B2 Sealant to keep the air out so you don't have accidents like Chalks. There is a alot of maintenace B.S. going on in Corrosion alley in Miami and people that shouldn't be working on Planes! That all I got to say about that.
It is not about being happy! It is about knowing my job and maintaining aircraft. It's Ok! Your not at my level! We really can't communicate because I been there done or seen that. My info came from the NTSB web site so there is no need to refrence your rumor web site. That's why you don't pull aircraft out of the ocean and try to fly them. Corrosion is like a tooth cavity that looks good on the surface. Rotton to the core. The only way to find something like that is pull the whole spar out, Strip it and visually look at it or use Eddie current, X RAY, or die penetrant if you can, "Which I am qualified to a Level 2". All rivets or Hylocks I put in a spar section are "Rotto Peined if required to stress relive the hole" treated, primed and shot in with PRC B2 Sealant to keep the air out so you don't have accidents like Chalks. There is a alot of maintenace B.S. going on in Corrosion alley in Miami and people that shouldn't be working on Planes! That all I got to say about that.
Last edited by Broken-Wrench on Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:39 am
I don't think it's an earth shattering conclusion that fatigue cracking caused the wing to fail . Even viewing the initial video footage it was quite clear that the separation had occured in flight and not withstanding a bomb
or some other device the cause was likely to revolve around a failure of the structure. I worked on a Widgeon many years ago that had been around a bit and it ended up as a virtual total rebuild . Even with the aircraft stripped down to virtually nothing it was only late in the rebuild
that exfoliation was seen in the spar cap which resulted in it needing an expensive repair.
or some other device the cause was likely to revolve around a failure of the structure. I worked on a Widgeon many years ago that had been around a bit and it ended up as a virtual total rebuild . Even with the aircraft stripped down to virtually nothing it was only late in the rebuild
that exfoliation was seen in the spar cap which resulted in it needing an expensive repair.
Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:09 am
Did you get any parts from the old guy down in FLL that rebuilt them there? We were on the same Ramp across from his hanger. I was working for Express One flying for Roadway Global Air . Did you make a new Spar? Or Spar Splice? I know what you mean corrosion is no laughing matter!
Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:00 pm
Heres a link to a pic of the accident aircraft in the 80s
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0 ... _id=061119
sorry for thr rediculous link but a neat pic anyway.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0 ... _id=061119
sorry for thr rediculous link but a neat pic anyway.
Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:30 pm
Chalk's pilot's husband sets up foundation
BY DARRAN SIMON
dsimon@MiamiHerald.com
Mark Marks last talked to his wife, pilot Michele Marks, on Dec. 18 when they rose before sunrise and he made her coffee. He told her he loved her, and to fly safe.
He found out she died when he saw the report Dec. 19 on TV that a Chalk's Ocean Airways seaplane had crashed off Miami Beach.
The couple's memories always seemed to come on the water's edge.
They met on a nine-day shark behavior ecology course in a South Africa fishing town. He asked her to marry him on the 10th day. Michele became Mrs. Marks on the San Diego coast.
''Everywhere I walk I see her. I smell her,'' Mark Marks told reporters Saturday at their Boynton Beach home. ``She was my soul mate, my best friend and my wife.''
Marks, 42, a renowned zoologist and research biologist who works with white sharks, said his wife of more than seven years loved wildlife and the ocean. He plans to start the Michele Lynn Marks Marine Conservation Foundation to give scholarships to college students for marine research.
The right wing of Chalk's Flight 101 separated from the fuselage in the crash. The seaplane plummeted into the water near the Government Cut jetty off Miami Beach. It had just left Watson Island, heading to Bimini. The 18 passengers and 2 pilots on board were all killed.
The cause of the crash is not expected for some time. But the Federal Aviation Administration issued a bulletin Friday saying it may now require mandatory inspection of all seaplanes. The bulletin said an FAA preliminary investigation showed stress fractures in the 58-year-old Grumman G-73 Turbine Mallard seaplane's right wing support that could have played a role in the crash.
Chalk's voluntarily grounded its four other G-73 aircrafts after the National Transportation Safety Board discovered the fractures.
Mark Marks said he didn't know much about the investigation but has to be patient.
''I really want to know what happened, for her, her co-pilot, the families of the other 15 passengers and three children that died,'' he said. ``I don't know how to honor her better than to find out the truth.''
Michele Marks, 37, loved seaplanes and worked for Chalk's about three years, flying twin-engine Grumman G-73T Mallards.
Chalk's promoted Marks, who had an unblemished flying record, according to the FAA, from first officer to captain this year.
Her husband wore her white gold wedding band with a green emerald around his neck.
The ring was one of the few items he has received from the medical examiner.
``I don't know how I am going to do this without her.''
He sobbed while talking and held a photo of his wife wearing a pilot's uniform.
''This is the single-most difficult thing I ever went through,'' he said.
Marks was teaching the shark behavior ecology course in 1998 when he met his wife. She was a few inches taller and attractive, he recalled. ''Oh man, I'm in trouble,'' he remembered saying when he first saw her.
They married on Sept. 23, 1998 -- her birthday.
She tempered him. He was loud, she was less confrontational. She wasn't the cook or the domesticated one. In fact, she just learned to boil spaghetti. She usually left a trail a clothes on the floor on her way to the shower.
She was the adventurer -- hiking mountains, swiming with white sharks in South Africa.
''She was fearless. She was absolutely fearless,'' her husband said.
He introduced her to hiking. They spent three months hiking across the country on their honeymoon. She was teaching him how to sail.
''I've lost my teacher as well,'' he said. She helped steer the Chondros, a 38-foot Irwin he owned from Naples to South Florida. The Chondros -- Latin for ''cartilaginous fish'' -- is docked at the couple's Boyton Beach complex.
The family held a service for her on Friday. Chalk's employees, mechanics, customs agents, and others from Bimini and passengers who flew with Marks showed up.
''I just feel so lonely without her,'' he said. ``She'll never come home, but I want her to come home so bad.''
BY DARRAN SIMON
dsimon@MiamiHerald.com
Mark Marks last talked to his wife, pilot Michele Marks, on Dec. 18 when they rose before sunrise and he made her coffee. He told her he loved her, and to fly safe.
He found out she died when he saw the report Dec. 19 on TV that a Chalk's Ocean Airways seaplane had crashed off Miami Beach.
The couple's memories always seemed to come on the water's edge.
They met on a nine-day shark behavior ecology course in a South Africa fishing town. He asked her to marry him on the 10th day. Michele became Mrs. Marks on the San Diego coast.
''Everywhere I walk I see her. I smell her,'' Mark Marks told reporters Saturday at their Boynton Beach home. ``She was my soul mate, my best friend and my wife.''
Marks, 42, a renowned zoologist and research biologist who works with white sharks, said his wife of more than seven years loved wildlife and the ocean. He plans to start the Michele Lynn Marks Marine Conservation Foundation to give scholarships to college students for marine research.
The right wing of Chalk's Flight 101 separated from the fuselage in the crash. The seaplane plummeted into the water near the Government Cut jetty off Miami Beach. It had just left Watson Island, heading to Bimini. The 18 passengers and 2 pilots on board were all killed.
The cause of the crash is not expected for some time. But the Federal Aviation Administration issued a bulletin Friday saying it may now require mandatory inspection of all seaplanes. The bulletin said an FAA preliminary investigation showed stress fractures in the 58-year-old Grumman G-73 Turbine Mallard seaplane's right wing support that could have played a role in the crash.
Chalk's voluntarily grounded its four other G-73 aircrafts after the National Transportation Safety Board discovered the fractures.
Mark Marks said he didn't know much about the investigation but has to be patient.
''I really want to know what happened, for her, her co-pilot, the families of the other 15 passengers and three children that died,'' he said. ``I don't know how to honor her better than to find out the truth.''
Michele Marks, 37, loved seaplanes and worked for Chalk's about three years, flying twin-engine Grumman G-73T Mallards.
Chalk's promoted Marks, who had an unblemished flying record, according to the FAA, from first officer to captain this year.
Her husband wore her white gold wedding band with a green emerald around his neck.
The ring was one of the few items he has received from the medical examiner.
``I don't know how I am going to do this without her.''
He sobbed while talking and held a photo of his wife wearing a pilot's uniform.
''This is the single-most difficult thing I ever went through,'' he said.
Marks was teaching the shark behavior ecology course in 1998 when he met his wife. She was a few inches taller and attractive, he recalled. ''Oh man, I'm in trouble,'' he remembered saying when he first saw her.
They married on Sept. 23, 1998 -- her birthday.
She tempered him. He was loud, she was less confrontational. She wasn't the cook or the domesticated one. In fact, she just learned to boil spaghetti. She usually left a trail a clothes on the floor on her way to the shower.
She was the adventurer -- hiking mountains, swiming with white sharks in South Africa.
''She was fearless. She was absolutely fearless,'' her husband said.
He introduced her to hiking. They spent three months hiking across the country on their honeymoon. She was teaching him how to sail.
''I've lost my teacher as well,'' he said. She helped steer the Chondros, a 38-foot Irwin he owned from Naples to South Florida. The Chondros -- Latin for ''cartilaginous fish'' -- is docked at the couple's Boyton Beach complex.
The family held a service for her on Friday. Chalk's employees, mechanics, customs agents, and others from Bimini and passengers who flew with Marks showed up.
''I just feel so lonely without her,'' he said. ``She'll never come home, but I want her to come home so bad.''
Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:06 am
How tragic that he has to go through life named 'Mark Marks'.
Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:27 am
Broken Wrench,
I too feel your relpy was a bit over the top considering the 20 deaths involved.
No matter how correct you were in your diagnosis, a little self restraint is needed.
We all need to work together to keep these old planes flying safely. I'm sure you can use your experience and knowlegde to help us do that.
I too feel your relpy was a bit over the top considering the 20 deaths involved.
No matter how correct you were in your diagnosis, a little self restraint is needed.
We all need to work together to keep these old planes flying safely. I'm sure you can use your experience and knowlegde to help us do that.
Last edited by oscardeuce on Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:32 am
WTF ! I didn't say anything about the people? 
Thats the problem with the world people feel to much and don't deal in fact.
Thats the problem with the world people feel to much and don't deal in fact.
Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:40 am
BR
"It looks like Corrosion and cracking was the cause. I told you ! Damm I'm good! Been there seen that! Broken-wrench! "
I was correct in diagnosing a person with brain cancer last week. By using a good history and physical exam, I was able to make the diagnosis even before the confirmatory CT scan. I felt bad to be right. How would you feel if you heard me celebrating my diagnosis the way you did if that was your mother or father with the cancer?
The tone of your response is the problem not the fact.
"It looks like Corrosion and cracking was the cause. I told you ! Damm I'm good! Been there seen that! Broken-wrench! "
I was correct in diagnosing a person with brain cancer last week. By using a good history and physical exam, I was able to make the diagnosis even before the confirmatory CT scan. I felt bad to be right. How would you feel if you heard me celebrating my diagnosis the way you did if that was your mother or father with the cancer?
The tone of your response is the problem not the fact.
Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:03 am
I am a Good Wrench!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What's the problem? You practice your medicine and I'll practice mine! I'll don't tell you how to fix people. OK
Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:59 am
Broken-Wrench wrote:I am a Good Wrench!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very humble, too. Nice touch.
Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:01 pm
Randy Haskin wrote:Broken-Wrench wrote:I am a Good Wrench!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very humble, too. Nice touch.
That is he being humble Randy..at least he didn't proclaim hisself to be
Best Wrench or King of the Wrenches etc. Oscardeuce...your diagnoses
scenario differs with BW's, in that his was a post-mortem observation.
No amount of hand-wringing will bring the victims back..this has been
primarily a technical querie...some answered, some not. The PPrune
threads linked by Raven helped fill in some of the blanks, but after reading
them, I realized that the WIX were a bit more conservative in our
speculations and commentary. No one appears to be dancing on the dead.
If there is a heaven..then there is a separation-anxiety issue for the
survivors to deal with, which time will cure. Thrashing a curious...if
somewhat unrestrained...Wrench, will change nothing.
Amphibians..especially airline or military, operate in an extreme environ.
Banging-about exacts a toll on the machines subjecting them to many
cycles in varying degrees that most civilians will probably never see. The
NTSB did state that the flaw was in such a place that would be tough to
easily detect...or words to that effect. Some friends...more knowledgeable
than I...speculate X-ray or other NDT would have gome a long way in
detection. Maybe the operator got caught-up in the struggles of a
less-than-typical small airline, and may pay the ultimate price...well, not
THE ultimate price. Maybe the 80-odd year old airline will emerge from
this the wiser, and just a bit safer..I hope so. The investigation isn't over
yet..but at least the remaining birds are down and being inspected.
Edit:
Probably would have been better to say "more challenged-than-typical
small airline" as a nod to the environment..