USS Lexington (CV-2) wreck found .. 4 March 2018 [revised]

[StangStung]

Tom - 5 posts up Mark gives the name.

As for the Lex- as it was technically scuttled (by 5 torpedoes from the USS Phelps) and not sunk, then there would be an argument against it being considered a war grave. However, I don't think anyone would want to salvage much more than a few small items and maybe one or two of the planes on the sea floor nearby.

As for why recover a TBD or the F4F - simple - they're actual early war aircraft in extremely good shape that would require only stabilization after recovery and then display as-is. No need to "restore" them, just display them.

My question wasn't "why recover a TBD or F4F", my question was very specific: Why recover THESE TBDs, when there are three documented at MUCH easier attainable depths, that also have war history (especially the two in Jaluit)?

As a corollary, is there any reason to believe the Navy would salvage these as opposed to the ones that would (seemingly) require less resources to go after?

[JFS61]

Tom - 5 posts up Mark gives the name.

As for the Lex- as it was technically scuttled (by 5 torpedoes from the USS Phelps) and not sunk, then there would be an argument against it being considered a war grave. However, I don't think anyone would want to salvage much more than a few small items and maybe one or two of the planes on the sea floor nearby.

As for why recover a TBD or the F4F - simple - they're actual early war aircraft in extremely good shape that would require only stabilization after recovery and then display as-is. No need to "restore" them, just display them.

My question wasn't "why recover a TBD or F4F", my question was very specific: Why recover THESE TBDs, when there are three documented at MUCH easier attainable depths, that also have war history (especially the two in Jaluit)?

As a corollary, is there any reason to believe the Navy would salvage these as opposed to the ones that would (seemingly) require less resources to go after?

Due to the extreme depths, with its colder water and lower oxygen levels, these aircraft have not suffered from the extensive corrosion and damage from marine life that those TBD's located at warmer, shallower depths have.

Judging from their appearance in the photos, there are in excellent condition (especially when considering all they have been through). Despite the extra costs/logistical issues, these would make better much candidates for restoration than the other known aircraft.

[StangStung]

Tom - 5 posts up Mark gives the name.

As for the Lex- as it was technically scuttled (by 5 torpedoes from the USS Phelps) and not sunk, then there would be an argument against it being considered a war grave. However, I don't think anyone would want to salvage much more than a few small items and maybe one or two of the planes on the sea floor nearby.

As for why recover a TBD or the F4F - simple - they're actual early war aircraft in extremely good shape that would require only stabilization after recovery and then display as-is. No need to "restore" them, just display them.

My question wasn't "why recover a TBD or F4F", my question was very specific: Why recover THESE TBDs, when there are three documented at MUCH easier attainable depths, that also have war history (especially the two in Jaluit)?

As a corollary, is there any reason to believe the Navy would salvage these as opposed to the ones that would (seemingly) require less resources to go after?

Due to the extreme depths, with its colder water and lower oxygen levels, these aircraft have not suffered from the extensive corrosion and damage from marine life that those TBD's located at warmer, shallower depths have.

Judging from their appearance in the photos, there are in excellent condition (especially when considering all they have been through). Despite the extra costs/logistical issues, these would make better much candidates for restoration than the other known aircraft.

This is what I was going for. Thanks.

Though I think the question remains as to whether the Navy would expend any resources to get them. Given the history mentioned above, perhaps it would be better to let a private outfit go after them.

[airnutz]

The Jaluit TBD's lay in the worst environment to "store" them...directly opposite to conditions the Lexington birds are in. Warm, highly sunlit, oxygenated, shallow, and high salinity water. They would fizz like alka-seltzer tabs when exposed to the air. It was reported the aluminum skin was so thin they wouldn't stand recovery...not even for patterns.

Last edited by airnutz on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[StangStung]

The wikipedia entry for the ship has already been updated, and has some data that all here would likely find interesting:

Discovery of the wreck[edit]
On 4 March 2018, the research vessel RV Petrel, in a search led by billionaire Paul Allen, discovered the wreck of Lexington during an expedition to the Coral Sea. The ship lies nearly 2 miles (3 km) below the surface and 430 nautical miles (800 km) off the coast of Queensland.[71][72] An ROV confirmed the identity of the wreck by finding the nameplate on the stern. The ship lies in three sections. The main section lies upright. A mile to the west, the bow and stern sections lie across from each other, with the bridge lying by itself between the sections. Further to the west, a concentration of aircraft comprising seven Devastators, three Dauntlesses, and a single Wildcat was also located, in a good state of preservation.[73]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lexington_(CV-2)

[sandiego89]

Tom - 5 posts up Mark gives the name.

As for the Lex- as it was technically scuttled (by 5 torpedoes from the USS Phelps) and not sunk, then there would be an argument against it being considered a war grave. However, I don't think anyone would want to salvage much more than a few small items and maybe one or two of the planes on the sea floor nearby.

As for why recover a TBD or the F4F - simple - they're actual early war aircraft in extremely good shape that would require only stabilization after recovery and then display as-is. No need to "restore" them, just display them.

My question wasn't "why recover a TBD or F4F", my question was very specific: Why recover THESE TBDs, when there are three documented at MUCH easier attainable depths, that also have war history (especially the two in Jaluit)?

As a corollary, is there any reason to believe the Navy would salvage these as opposed to the ones that would (seemingly) require less resources to go after?

I would say it is because these deep examples are in MUCH, MUCH better condition that the "easier" recoveries. The ones at scuba depths have essentially become part of the coral reef, and while depth may be easy, recovery is not easy. They are encrusted in marine growth and will likely come apart in brittle little bits and would exfoliate immediately upon surfacing if not given an extensive bath period (years). They are really easily restorable/preservable. These deep birds have a chance with careful recovery and preservation.

I think a private/public relationship might have a chance, with the precedence of the Titanic discovery and the few fresh water recoveries done with Navy permission. After Ballard found the USS Scorpion debris he used spare time to find the Titanic. Maybe if Mr. Allen finds the C-2, the Navy would be willing to let him recover a few of these. Navy has been less enthused (politely phrased) about private folks recovering Navy artifacts for their private collections.

[seabee1526]

[/quote]I think a private/public relationship might have a chance, with the precedence of the Titanic discovery and the few fresh water recoveries done with Navy permission. After Ballard found the USS Scorpion debris he used spare time to find the Titanic. Maybe if Mr. Allen finds the C-2, the Navy would be willing to let him recover a few of these. Navy has been less enthused (politely phrased) about private folks recovering Navy artifacts for their private collections.[/quote]

Would the Navy even contribute to the cost of recovery? Other than the adventure of it, would Paul even be interested in spending that kind of money to bring a couple up on the promise that one will end up at his place "on permanent loan"? Be hard to make a business case for raising them, restoring one to static condition and never gaining ownership of it.

...unless the Navy was willing to transfer ownership...

[Dan Jones]

I think a mutually beneficial deal could be made for all parties. Here's hoping, anyway!

What is just unbelievable about those TBD's is that there's even fabric still on the rudders, and it would be cotton fabric at that! I can't begin to imagine what the rest of them must look like. If we're ever gonna see a TBD see the light of day again, surely this is the opportunity.

[StangStung]

I think a mutually beneficial deal could be made for all parties. Here's hoping, anyway!

What is just unbelievable about those TBD's is that there's even fabric still on the rudders, and it would be cotton fabric at that! I can't begin to imagine what the rest of them must look like. If we're ever gonna see a TBD see the light of day again, surely this is the opportunity.

True. There isn't just one, but seven TBDs.

The raising of SBDs and F4Fs from Lake Michigan is the clear comparison here with respect to mutually beneficial arrangements. Those were spread far and wide.

But the TBDs are waaaaaay down there...

[Nathan]

this is the holy grail of aircraft finds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Early war USN aircraft that fought the battle of the Coral Sea, still have the pre war markings, and the aircraft look like they just came out of 1942! its a freakin time machine down there!!!


There is so much to learn from these aircraft-the correct color of paint used, pilots, kill markings, the crews, so much history there! It cant be kept down there. We have very little from the early days that survivied!

[Mark Allen M]

Another aspect of this F4F wreck is quite interesting; crewmen on the stricken Lexington reportedly used life rafts from the aircraft parked on the deck as they abandoned ship. Note the raft compartment, behind the cockpit, is empty.

[Jerry O'Neill]

Another issue that I have heard in regards to the Jaluit TBD's is that the local government is none to keen on seeing tourist sites removed. You'd have to get the Navy and the locals to agree to recover what might now be more of a TBD shaped coral reef.
Jerry

[wendovertom]

Every time I look at that Wildcat photo I am blown away again by the remarkable condition - it looks like the headrest is in good condition for crying out loud!

Tom P.

[Firebird]

That F-5 looks like it was a recent overpaint of another number......??

[Shay]

I see a "G" (maybe LT.JG), ending with a "H" or maybe an "R"

Shay
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