Collings Foundation B-17G 909 Has Crashed :-( 10/2/2019

[JimH]

Just a cursory google search on the size of the GA fuel burning population shows just north of 210,000 aircraft. 4,600 of that number, or so being corporate jets. Depending on what source you use, in 2008 it was reported that 186,000 million gallons of avgas was consumed. While alternatives are being developed it will be a long time before they are adopted. Our reliance on oil and oil based products is not going away any time soon. There is little to no infrastructure to support alternatives...even for cars. The price may skyrocket, but in reality the oil companies do not want to price themselves out of business. They will eventually test the higher end of the price spectrum before backing off. It's a commodity to them that needs sold to justify production. When you factor in the cost of rising insurance rates, the loss of interest in GA aviation, and the growing expense of maintaining an aircraft...the future, I believe, is teetering on the edge of a sword. Pandemic aside, over the last couple of years I've seen less and less small airplane traffic around NE Ohio other than training. I really think the training, homebuilt, antique, and warbird communities are propping up what is left of aviation in the U.S.. After visiting over 100 airports a year with the tour for over a decade, the decline was very noticeable as well. It was interesting to watch, over the years, the corporate traffic increase.

There was a company in MN or WI, that was developing a suitable "big engine" direct fuel alternative based on a corn blend. I lost track of that project but they were using an R-2800 as a test engine. We were under threat of 100LL being pulled from the market by 2010...well, here we are in 2021. Electric anything is a long ways off. It will be fun to see how this post ages. and it's just my humble opinion.

Jim

[BigGrey]

You make very good points Jim. One that I will add is that the high costs of training have really impacted general aviation. It is really a major investment just to get a private ticket today. When I started flying I was paying $26.50 an hour for a 152/wet and instructor. Instruction in a T-6 or P-51 takes really deep pockets today.

[RyanShort1]

You make very good points Jim. One that I will add is that the high costs of training have really impacted general aviation. It is really a major investment just to get a private ticket today. When I started flying I was paying $26.50 an hour for a 152/wet and instructor. Instruction in a T-6 or P-51 takes really deep pockets today.

It's inflation...

https://www.coinflation.com/coins/1932- ... Value.html - today (April 7, 2021) - one (1 !) 1964 quarter has about $4.55 melt value.

63 1964 quarters current melt value would pay for me and my Luscombe for a tailwheel lesson, so roughly $16 in 1964 money would pay for me and my plane for a flight today. The "value" hasn't changed that much when indexed to something like precious metals, and I probably have higher insurance costs than most people were paying back then.

[oscardeuce]

In my opinion, as a person who helped write a medical and flight SOP for a historical flight experience, the FAA has always made it almost impossible to comply with any changes . For example: an AD came out on the Hueys in the late 90s. The FAA pulled our our exemption. We contacted them and asked for exactly what they wanted done, how they wanted it done, any to add in writing once we complied with their plan they would have immediately reinstated our flight exemption.
They said “No”to the immediate written reinstatement. The fixes were in excess of $60,000 per aircraft, and with no guarantee we could give flights again, we we did not have the financial means to fix the ADs without knowing we would have income to off set the investment.

That is how they will kill the historical experience program, just refuse to support and then regulate them out of existence.

Yet there are some Huey outfits operating under LHFE regs. Was this the fin AD?

Yes both the mast and fin/tailboom ADs
What is your point about the current Hueys?
Maybe your pockets are infinitely deep, but not ours.
You trying to accuse me of not telling the truth?
In fact those Hueys flying today are using the SOP that we wrote initially. If it wasn’t for our ground breaking work it might not be happening today.
Our local FAA rep would not issue the letter that guaranteed the reinstatement of our exemption. Maybe he was just being a dick, and the current groups have a more friendly representative. I don’t know, but I do know the rules are not equally enforced.

Your mileage may vary

[OD/NG]

Final NTSB Accident report out:

https://u7061146.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/cli ... q6szuGE-3D

[ZRX61]

In my opinion, as a person who helped write a medical and flight SOP for a historical flight experience, the FAA has always made it almost impossible to comply with any changes . For example: an AD came out on the Hueys in the late 90s. The FAA pulled our our exemption. We contacted them and asked for exactly what they wanted done, how they wanted it done, any to add in writing once we complied with their plan they would have immediately reinstated our flight exemption.
They said “No”to the immediate written reinstatement. The fixes were in excess of $60,000 per aircraft, and with no guarantee we could give flights again, we we did not have the financial means to fix the ADs without knowing we would have income to off set the investment.

That is how they will kill the historical experience program, just refuse to support and then regulate them out of existence.

Yet there are some Huey outfits operating under LHFE regs. Was this the fin AD?

Yes both the mast and fin/tailboom ADs
What is your point about the current Hueys?
Maybe your pockets are infinitely deep, but not ours.
You trying to accuse me of not telling the truth?
In fact those Hueys flying today are using the SOP that we wrote initially. If it wasn’t for our ground breaking work it might not be happening today.
Our local FAA rep would not issue the letter that guaranteed the reinstatement of our exemption. Maybe he was just being a dick, and the current groups have a more friendly representative. I don’t know, but I do know the rules are not equally enforced.

Your mileage may vary

WTF? Where the hell did that come from? All I did was ask if it was the fin AD. I know there are Hueys out there that have had the Fin AD sorted, but had no idea which ones & if they are on the LH program. I assume they have & are.

[p51]

it's been a while but something I've been wondering about all this:
What happened to the remains of 909? The tail and part of a wing made it, surely they weren't taken to a scrap place of a dump?
Same thing with that French B-17 that crashed at Binbrook making the "Memphis Belle" movie in '89, nobody was ever able to tell me what happened to the remains of that bird either (the tail survived in that case, too).
I'd always thought that the charred tail of 909, perhaps repainted as a wartime B-17 which was shot down during the war, would make a great display.
That said, the Collings folks wouldn't likely want a reminder of their greatest tragedy on display?

[Jesse C.]

it's been a while but something I've been wondering about all this:
What happened to the remains of 909? The tail and part of a wing made it, surely they weren't taken to a scrap place of a dump?
Same thing with that French B-17 that crashed at Binbrook making the "Memphis Belle" movie in '89, nobody was ever able to tell me what happened to the remains of that bird either (the tail survived in that case, too).
I'd always thought that the charred tail of 909, perhaps repainted as a wartime B-17 which was shot down during the war, would make a great display.
That said, the Collings folks wouldn't likely want a reminder of their greatest tragedy on display?

I am just taking a wild guess that the remains of 909 are probably at Tom Reily's place. I believe he was restoring the Labrador B-17 and Liberty Belle, so I would assume he might have ended up with the pieces.

As for the French bird, I read somewhere that actor Billy Zane had the tail fin in his home on display. So it sounds like the remains where broken up and possibly scavenged for usable items and then to the scrapper.

Mind you, I am just guessing

[r1830]

IMHO, I don’t see any benefit to displaying any remaining parts of 909. I think it would be more fitting to have a sculpture and/or plaque at KBDL in remembrance of those who tragically passed in what ultimately should have never occurred in the first place. I cannot fathom how the families of the passengers that lost their lives feel. If it was any of my family, I wouldn’t want the pieces of the wreckage on display. I still think of 909 and it’s passengers and crew almost daily (There are two reminders on the clock every day). Prior to the accident, seeing this time on the clock filled me with great memories, now it only serves as a reminder of what was lost and triggers thoughts and prayers for all who have been affected. May they focus on the cherished memories of happier times with their loved ones gone to soon.

[oscardeuce]

Just the tone of your post with the use of the word “Yet”.

No worries otherwise, and the treatment from the FAA just sticks with me having invested much money and time into writing and instituting the SOP.