Warbird Information Exchange

I have started to contribute here on 5 different occasions, and stopped each time. Think I'll try again.

First off, the use of the word 'sheeple' here is repugnant. It is not a synonym for 'college student', and it demeans 30+ dead students and faculty who were in no way beginning their day with the expectation of deadly force being thrown their way.

I would respectfully submit a hypothesis as to how so many people were killed in response to the poster who used that word. Here's a scenario.

It's not yet 10:00 am during your first or second class of the week. You're 19, or 21, or 76 years old. You hear loud sharp noises. Your instructor doesn't seem concerned, so you aren't either.

Plausibly, you may not realize there is, in fact, a threat, until there is an armed man coming through your door. You don't know him, and the only thing you can think to do is to hit the floor. You are not a trained member of the military, so you have no experience in threat assessment. You are in a room that is approximately 30x30 or so, not big enough for you to observe the assailant and try to formulate a response. In fact you aren't even sure that there's only one. Your only peripheral awareness of such an event is the tragedy at Columbine, where there were two killers who had a multitude of weapons available to them.

My point is this...The passengers who assaulted the 9/11 hijackers had a variety of life experience, awareness of their situation, and time to formulate a plan of attack. They had everything these students did not, but most critically, they had time. Time to improvise weapons, and the situational awareness that they were most likely going to die either way, and this was their best chance.

The victims at VT had none of these. It is easy for others to wonder how they would themselves respond, but let me submit that we are wondering that from the point in our lives that we are now, with our current life experience. I'm 43. I've never had military training, nor am I a gun owner. I believe that I would move Heaven and Earth to maximize my chances of seeing my family again...but I've had 24 more years of life experience to bring to that conclusion.

One of the men who reacted in the most responsive fashion, in my opinion, is the man who survived the Holocaust. Here is a man who certainly had been in horrific situations in the past, and he reacted in a way that saved lives.

Again I submit that his life experience led him to respond.

This post is too long already. I'll contribute to the gun/non-gun debate later.

Let me close with this...these discussions have the potential to be informative, if all sides are willing to listen and if contributors can remain civil. Opposing beliefs need not be seen as an assault on the beliefs of others. If people here can do that, I'd love to see this part of the debate continue. In the right light, I can always learn from people I disagree with.

If it's gonna be yer-an-idiot-ville, then lock the sucker up quick.

_________________
"Anyway, the throat feels a bit rough...the legs have gone...but I'm still able to chant, so let's get going."

Joe Strummer, 1999

Y'know Ryan, I wonder, I really do. I'd rather talk about warbirds.

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Raven

Mudge, I agree with you 100%. The first thing I will do when I'm 21 is not go have a night on the town; instead I will be first in line to get my right to carry (21 in TX). Like you said, the framers of the constitution specifically included the right to bear arms incase their ever was a tyrannical leader. The whole point of that amendment is the assurance to the American people that if such power arises we can fight back. It makes me sick when these nut-jobs go on a suicidal rampage. He took 32 innocent lives and jeopardized OUR right for protection. Personally I don't understand those who want to take away our guns, maybe I'm stuck in my little 17 year old conservative realm, but someday I may have to protect my family and I should be allowed to do so.

Taylor Stevenson

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Taylor Stevenson

ditto

Ryan the brief

>>We do have a god given and constitutional right to keep and bare arms>>

What?? A god given right? To *bare* arms?

You guys all seem a lot smarter when you stick to warbirds.

A malapropism doesn't invalidate the meaning of the words.

It must hurt getting grammatical critique from someone using two question marks, incomplete sentences, and asterisks in place of quotes.

The founding fathers believed that our rights were endowed upon us by our creator, not by the government.

Ryan

I think that pretty much says it all. And to add to it, tonight on the news they said that when the shooter came in everybody dropped to the floor. He kept shooting and SHOT AT THE PEOPLE ON THE FLOOR! They said he even shot some people and then when they fell to the floor HE SHOT THEM AGAIN!!

How are you supposed to defend against that? Even if you are trained?


(I must say that being a college student this has made me think a little... not to mention when tonight on the news I heard about there was a "fellow" Chemical Engineer who was shot... )

Ever notice when someone stupid does something stupid with a gun we blame our gun laws, but when someone stupid does something stupid with an automobile it's ok? No media or civil uproar, no one blames the auto. Unfortunately dead is still dead.

Regards,
Mike

As I said, you seem a lot smarter when you are speaking about warbirds. I don't believe you understand the meaning of the second ammendment as our founding fathers intended it, except for what has been spoon-fed to you and I don't accept a grammatical critique based upon an internet forum exchange from you – Mudge, maybe. Mrs. Mudge, definitely. (Oh no, another incomplete sentence!) Accepted and understood shortcuts and typographical substitutions are widely understood and accepted by those considered 'internet-savvy'who populate such internet communities. So, when I bracketed the word 'bare' in astericks, it was to emphasize the humor I found in the phrase, "to bare arms." The double question marks; well, I just was in wonderment how you got the 'god-given' part. In Kansas we call that a 'leap of faith.'

And you are the arbiter of what is considered excess? How many is that? 2, 3, 4, 50, 100?



It say it in the Second Amendment...The people should have as many arms and the standing military...hard to do these days with F-22's and nukes...or at least as much firepower as the government police.

As Mr Mudge has stated if it were not for the Second Amendment you could srcap all the rest...see Hitler and Stalin and PolPot and Kim Jung Il and Wen Jiabao...

Zane the Armed

_________________
Zane Adams
There I was at 20,000 ft, upside down and out of ammunition.
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In regards to the grammatical critique, I personally just found it ironic. I personally don't hold people accountable for spelling and grammar in an informal discussion. It was meant in jest, hence the smiley face. I can see that you didn't find it funny...

In regards to my understanding of the second amendment: It may be easier for you to assume that I am ignorant or have been "spoon-fed" my opinions, but the fact remains that I have read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence and other founding documents and many essays, articles, and books regarding the founding of this country and the origins of the Constitution and Bill of rights. I have seen many documents outlining the personal feelings and arguments of the founding fathers both before and after the writing of the documents especially those of the 1st Congress in 1789 when the second amendment was written. In particular the thoughts of James Madison who was the primary author of the second amendment as well as Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee, Thom Paine, and Samuel Adams and George Mason all of whom have written and spoken at length about the amendment. I am also familiar with United States v. Miller, United States v. Gomez, United States v. Hutzell, and Planned Parenthood v. Casey United States Supreme court decisions that pertain directly to the second amendment.

As far as the "leap of faith:" If you have read much about the founding of the country, the founding fathers, or have read much of the original founding documents it is hard for me to understand how you could have missed the fact that the founding fathers not only eluded to the fact but wrote in ink that our rights were bestowed upon us by our creator (God), and not by the government. The rights are inalienable, and aren't subject to change without a constitutional amendment.

Ryan

You guys floor me...seriously. I should be "ashamed" that I used the term "sheeple"? "Repugnant"?

The deaths of 30 people is tragic, but open your eyes. Things like this -- and worse -- happen every day all over the world. I don't hear anyone crying over killings in Darfur or any one of the other hot-spots in the world where there is human tragedy on a massive scale being committed RIGHT NOW AS YOU READ THIS MESSAGE. Just because it happens to some college kids closer to home doesn't mean it must be held more sacred than anything else.

So, back to the "sheeple" comment. All I will say is that the comment was made in response to a report I saw on the news here in the UK the day this occurred which appears now to be incorrect -- namely that many of the victims were lined up and shot execution style.

This is the scenario where I could not fathom that a group of people would allow themselves to be herded to a slaughter without an attempt to overwhelm a single aggressor.

My comment has nothing to do if people were in the military or not or "trained". I've been in the US military 12 years and I've never been given ANY training on how to handle being at gunpoint, but I'll tell you this much...if I'm going to be killed anyway, I'm not going without a fight. It's a survival instinct. Unfortunately, so many youth in the US are taught to just comply with the bad man and wait to be "rescued"...this in itself is a recipe for disaster. Everyone has to be responsible for their own security and absolutely can't rely on "the man" to rescue them. It has NOTHING to do with RKBA, or military training, or being a helpless college student who had no expectation of being killed at school.

Just as today three guys with box-cutters would never be able to hold an airliner hostage against a group of "un-trained" passengers, any group of people anywhere should not allow a single gunman to kill them while they still have the means to resist. That means is a mentality, not something learned in a classroom somewhere.

"the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Well here in Ct,home of Colt,thier really INFRINGING on my rights

We Americans like your guns,it has little to do with safety or keeping an eye on the government.

I'm sorry for the people who got killed but the world is an unsafe place,good people die and if you can't take that go crawl under your bed and stay there.

P.S. Most of the pilots and teachers I know couldn't hit the side of a barn

I choose not to acknowledge them in this forum. I consider them to be acknowledged elsewhere adequately by people far more eloquent than myself.

I'm not sure either, the sources of the statistics for that statement may be different than the links I provided. It sounds like some of the statistics may lump suicides in with "Firearm Deaths." I can see how some careless reporters might lump that category in with "Firearm Murders."

I also was not trying to equate gun fatalities with rapes, but in the US there has been a well documented reduction in assaults on women in some states due to the increased concealed gun ownership among women.

I posted those links mostly because I found the data interesting and thought others might as well (police per capita being one of them).

I guess I get a little sensitive at times with what I perceive as US bashing. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I don't see a lot of Americans posting about how the UK or Australia ought to handle their affairs. PNG maybe, I think that most of us can agree on that issue at least!

Well Rosie, I'm afraid I can't disagree more.

Maybe if you offer me enough, I will sell you my guns and you can destroy them to get them "out of circulation." I don't think my government should be doing that however.

The nut that crashed the Cessna into the White House very well could have brought an end to general aviation (not a right by the way) and 9/11 almost did. After all, someone could fly into the stands at a pro football game and kill far more than 32. And a Corsair at high speed could kill way more than a Cessna 150. Better order the Navy to reclaim them all (like they did with the Chino F-14s).

Mark Pilkington:

Herewith, some info to refute your commentary: "The volume of school shootings in the US - Columbine etc and this most recent tragedy are not repeated at this level anywhere else in the Western World, neither are the per-head of population shooting deaths. - end of story"

(AP) - School shootings from around the world since 1996:

_ Nov. 21, 2006: Sebastian Bosse, 18, opens fire at his former school in Emsdetten, Germany, before killing himself. Five people are wounded and scores hospitalized for smoke inhalation after he sets off smoke bombs.

_ Sept. 13, 2006: Kimveer Gill, 25, opens fire in a cafeteria at a Montreal college, killing one student and wounding 19 before shooting himself.

_ Sept. 28, 2004: Three teenagers are shot and killed by their 15-year-old classmate at a high school in Carmen de Patagones, Argentina. The suspect is detained.

_ Sept. 3, 2004: Chechen rebels take hundreds of students and teachers hostage in a school in Beslan, Russia, for two days. The siege ends when explosions tear through the school and security forces storm the building, leaving 334 dead _ more than half of them children _ as well as 31 suspected militants and 11 special forces soldiers.

_ April 29, 2002: Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, shoots his teacher, then himself at a school in Vlansenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

_ April 26, 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, who had been expelled from a school in Erfurt, Germany, kills 13 teachers, two former classmates and a policeman, before shooting himself.

_ Feb. 19, 2002: A man in his 20s fatally shoots the principal of his former high school in Freising, Germany, after killing two people at a company where he was fired. The man then kills himself.

_ Jan. 18, 2001: Two teenagers fatally shoot a 16-year-old student in a bathroom at a school in a suburb of Stockholm, Sweden.

_ March 30, 1997: A father in Sana'a, Yemen, kills four students and two adults, including the headmistress, at the school his daughters attend. He then walks to another school and kills a teacher there.

_ March 13, 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, kills 16 kindergarten children and their teacher in Dunblane, Scotland, before turning the gun on himself.

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Sources: International Action Network on Small Arms and The Associated Press.

For the record, I have two nieces who attend VT. Thankfully they are ok. Now, the REAL difference between the USA and EVERY other country is that we have a Constitutional RIGHT to choose to own firearms. If the rest of y'all choose to ban 'em, that's your own right to choose. But, I note that the Brits are talking seriously about banning knives and baseball bats, because, guess what, the criminals haven't gone away, they are now stabbing folk instead of shooting them.

Bah. I'd rather talk warbirds anyway, especially since I have just lost a lot of respect for some people I used to think were pretty intelligent and independent thinkers here, and some that I know in real life as well as here.

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Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts