Ejection seat or not?

[Ken]

Maybe a tad late on this comment, given the trend of this thread, but I believe "today's" Air Force will not let civilians sit in ejection seats unless they have been deactivated for the display - each airframe has a regulation/instruction. Heck, even the heavies disconnect the ship's battery and perform a host of other checklist items both before and after the static display to safe and then restore the airplane for flight. I can't speak for every instance but I know I've seen the braided lines near the headrest capped off by Life Support to safe the seat for display. Maybe someone punched themselves out on the ramp years ago, but how recent is the last episode?

As a side note - assuming the Skyraider was among the first big piston/prop warplanes to have an extraction seat ... it's not as if they kept them out of previous cockpits because the A-1 was the first to need it ... it's more likely that P-51s and F4Us didn't have them because they weren't invented yet. I agree with the other posters who said that having the seat is better than not ... and choosing to use it or ride it in ... well, that's what all the pilot training and big bucks go towards.

Ken

[airnutz]

I still wonder if the F7U Cutlass had an ejection seat? Nobody seems to know or want to fess up.

Sorry, missed that earlier P-CAAF. The Cutlass from its inception had an ejection seat, tho when Vought
went about improving the F7U-1 the improved version flew with a Vought designed seat..which I understand
worked quite well.

If you have a chance...check out a book written by Navy pilot and later test pilot, John Moore.
"The Wrong Stuff: Flight on the Edge of Disaster", an alternately disturbing and hilarious account of
his flying days..some of which were logged in the Cutlass.

One account is of an instance where he had a ventral fire aboard his 'gutless' and made it back to North Island,
but electing not to risk landing..he aimed her toward the sea and punched-out over NI. He came down on
the beach in front of the Hotel del Coronado. As he was gathering his chute(and wits) together he heard some
noise and turned to look back toward the hotel as a flaming Cutlass flew overhead heading out toward the sea...

He said he thought to himself, "What's that idiot up to?". Apparently, after he punched-out his bird made a wide
descending arc on its own passing back over him to splash harmlessly out at sea. Very lucky for the Navy and
some residents of San Diego.

I may be misremembering some of the details, but that's the jist of the story..that's OK, it's a good reason to go
back and read the book again!

[Mustang51]

All of the ejection seats in the jets flown by the Temora Aviation Museum are live. Three in the Canberra, two in the Vampire, one in the Meteor, two in the A-37B and soon to be one in tie CAC built Sabre that is being returned to airworthy condition for the Royal Australian Air Force Museum.

[warbird1]

I agree with the other posters who said that having the seat is better than not ... and choosing to use it or ride it in ... well, that's what all the pilot training and big bucks go towards.

Ken

This is just my opinion, but if I owned an airplane with a hot ejection seat, I would not ride it in, or attempt an off-airport ditching. This could be much more dangerous than simply ejecting. I know of several cases where ejection seat equipped planes did such a thing and somehow the structural integrity of the fuselage was compromised by ground contact or obstacles. This, in turn, caused some piece of metal, to poke or fire the ejection seat initiator and caused an uncommanded ejection. This would have happened whether the seat pins were in or not. In other words, you could land on terrain, and be ejected from the aircraft against your will. I don't believe there are any Zero-Zero ejection seats out there in civilian use, so that means you would eject outside of the envelope of the seat and most likely die.

If you have an ejection seat, use it. If you don't and attempt to ride it in, you just might kill yourself anyway.

Just something to think about, and yes there are people who have died from just such a scenario.

Last edited by warbird1 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

[warbird1]

I think some people have the impression that a guy who is flying a seat-equipped aircraft is going to pull the handles at the first sign of trouble, and whatever happens to the airplane will happen. My point was to show that this is not the truth.

What Randy says is 100% correct, and I agree with everything he has said so far. Ejecting is only done as a last resort when the pilot's life is at stake. For those of you unfamiliar with ejection seat aircraft, there are only 3 basic scenarios where you would eject in a peacetime environment:

1) The airplane is uncontrollable.
2) The airplane has a fire that is indistinguishable.
3) The airplane is unlandable.

The airplane is uncontrollable - This could result from several different reasons such as: a) loss of all hydraulics (assuming there is no backup), b) some kind of aircraft damage caused by either combat, a mid-air collision, or hitting something on the ground, c) loss of all engines and/or thrust.

The airplane has a fire that is indistinguishable - it is SOP to eject from jets that are on fire, which can't be put out. You don't know what kind of damage that fire has caused or is going to cause in the future, so you don't take any chances. If you try to land an aircraft that is actively on fire, you just might risk losing control of the aircraft at low altitude or low airspeed, either of which might be outside your ejection envelope. So, you might have had a survivable scenario and turned it into an unsurvivable one. You don't mess with fires.

The airplane is unlandable - 4 types of scenarios here:

a) A majority of fighter/tactical/trainer type aircraft with ejection seats have flight controls that are hydraulically actuated with no manual or cable/linkage backup. This means that if you lose hydraulics, you won't be able to land the airplane. Hydraulics on these types of jets are nearly always powered by a hydraulic pump linked to a gearbox, which is driven by a power takeoff shaft connected to the engine. If the engine stops turning, the hydraulic pump stops turning, and you lose hydraulics. Some airplanes can provide enough hydraulic pressure from a "windmilling" engine to fly in cruise, but as you slow down to approach speeds, the rpm's decrease on the jet engine, and you won't have enough residual pressure from the hydraulic pumps to activate the flight controls. In other words, the airplane might be controllable at cruise speed but not at approach and landing speeds. In this scenario, you would be able to fly the plane to a certain non-populated area to affect a controlled ejection.

b) Due to external damage to the airplane from whatever reason, the airplane may or may not be controllable at approach and landing speeds. Most jets' Dash One/NATOPS/Flight Manuals have a "controllability check" where you gradually slow the airplane down to see if the airplane is controllable at touchdown speeds. If it is not, then you eject.

c) An airplane might have an unlandable configuration. One example is a stuck landing gear. On a lot, if not most fighter/tactical/trainer type jets, one main landing gear stuck up, with the rest down and locked is considered an unlandable emergency. The reason, is that at the speeds that those jets land, the bad side landing gear wing will eventually have to make runway contact. At those speeds, it could cause a runway departure at high speed and cause the airplane to either dig in and distintegrate or cartwheel. Obviously, this would most likely kill the pilot.

d) The plane has a total electrical failure, you are on top of a solid overcast or you are IMC, and there is no VMC within range of the plane's reserves. Since you don't know where you are at and you can't navigate, you will eject. If you can't break out of the weather and maintain VMC at your MEA or MSA, you will eject just prior to running out of gas.


Ejection is not something that is taken lightly and is only used as a last resort.

[Randy Haskin]

Excellent writeup.

[CAPFlyer]

Only critique - it's inextinguishable, not indistingishable. The first is a fire that can't be put out by the onboard systems, the second is one that can't be determined if it's a fire or normal combustion.

[Ken]

Warbird1: This is just my opinion, but if I owned an airplane with a hot ejection seat, I would not ride it in, or attempt an off-airport ditching

I respect your opinon - but, more clearly, I was pointing out that, because many civil seats are not zero/zero, it's up to the pilot to choose the best response to meet the emergency. There may be a time when a forced landing IS the best choice ... but ... take away the seat and a forced landing becomes the ONLY choice. I'd prefer to have options.

Flying has four priorities:
1- Have fun.
2- Follow the rules.
3- Don't damage anything.
4- Don't injure anyone.

Obviously the 4th is most important. The previous priorities drop out in sequence to preserve the next. Need to knock off the fun in order to follow the rules? Too bad. Will breaking the rules prevent damage? Break 'em to meet the need. Will trashing the jet save your life? Let the taxpyers and insurance companies figure it out.

Bottom line - the more options available, the better.

Ken

[RickH]

Martin Baker MK H7 is 0/0 as long as the pilot weight doesn't exceed the 0/0 parameters. They are in the F-4.

[CH2Tdriver]

.....and sometimes the seat gets used whether you like it or not....

Someone here may know about this one, as I can't readily find an article about it. A few years ago in the UK, there was a Jet Provost that had 2 people on board. They were doing aerobatics, and while inverted the right seat passenger, seat and all departed the airframe, through the canopy and off into mid-air...it just fell out. The pilot landed distraught thinking the worst. It turns out the seat worked perfectly. The drougue deployed and the pilot was separated from the seat on cue and landed safely in his parachute in a field, later to be reunited with the very relieved pilot. I read this in one of the UK mags and I don't know if the pyro was removed/inhibited or if the seats were live?

Pete

[CH2Tdriver]

....ok, it is referenced here. Looks like the UK has procedures established:

http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/rules.html

Pete

[Jack Frost]

An extremely interesting discussion of a interesting topic.

Just one nit to pick; 'Ditching' a non-seaplane is an emergency landing on water. If it's an emergency landing on any other material it's a 'Forced Landing'. The terms are not interchangable.

[mlenoch]

Along the lines of this post, I have a friend who trying to 'dispose' of a pair of 1998 dated CT-133 seat cartriges. He will give them to the local bomb disposal unit to burn/fire. But, if anyone has a better use, he will give them away. They are located in Denver (Boulder).
FYI........ASAP.
VL

[Cvairwerks]

Vlado: IF the bomb guys will contaminate the carts so that they can safely be cleaned out, and the charge material destroyed, they might be useful for someone that is building up a display seat. Depending on how the carts are manufactured, it might be pretty easy to do. The vendor should be able to give a procedure for this. It might even be described in the backshop T.O's for the seats. I'm pretty familiar with the ACES II and I know there are disposal instructions for all of the pyro on them, but I don't have access to them normally.

[warbird1]

Only critique - it's inextinguishable, not indistingishable. The first is a fire that can't be put out by the onboard systems, the second is one that can't be determined if it's a fire or normal combustion.

Ah, yes, you are absolutely correct! I wrote it late at night when I was tired. I think everyone got the meaning though. It was all in reference to an onboard fire that can't be put out.