This is the place where the majority of the warbird (aircraft that have survived military service) discussions will take place. Specialized forums may be added in the new future
Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:29 am
Warbirdnerd wrote:Didnt the Wittingtons loose a F9F Cougar in the Gulf too? IIRC no trace of the pilot or plane was ever found...
http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentRe ... 120000.pdf
Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:47 pm
how do they come to the conclusion the aircraft was not stiff enough? Just from the buckling skins on the fuselage? Didn't they see the buckling skins on the wing? That buckling is not a sure fire indication of a structural deficiency.
I've flown in formation with a polished T-28 in light chop and it is a thing of beauty to see the buckles in the fuselage and tailcone skins as they reverse direction.
Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:47 pm
bdk wrote:how do they come to the conclusion the aircraft was not stiff enough? Just from the buckling skins on the fuselage? Didn't they see the buckling skins on the wing? That buckling is not a sure fire indication of a structural deficiency.
I've flown in formation with a polished T-28 in light chop and it is a thing of beauty to see the buckles in the fuselage and tailcone skins as they reverse direction.
Maybe the fact that the canopy had popped out of its frame due to the deformation of the airframe, unless that's a normal occurrence on other aircraft as well.
Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:39 pm
JFS61 wrote:bdk wrote:how do they come to the conclusion the aircraft was not stiff enough? Just from the buckling skins on the fuselage? Didn't they see the buckling skins on the wing? That buckling is not a sure fire indication of a structural deficiency.
I've flown in formation with a polished T-28 in light chop and it is a thing of beauty to see the buckles in the fuselage and tailcone skins as they reverse direction.
Maybe the fact that the canopy had popped out of its frame due to the deformation of the airframe, unless that's a normal occurrence on other aircraft as well.
Several other racers over the years have had a similar issue either with the canopy staying closed or gaps opening up. Usually they were quickly resolved. I don't know how this system worked for locking and was this an issue for a moment or for a longer time during the race.
Buckling is a sign of movement but not necessarily adverse. The fuselage above the wing is very stiff, the strongest portion of the fuselage. I doubt the fwd fuselage did any moving but it shows the flexibility and strength of the canopy.
Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:29 pm
Also, the canopy where it met the windscreen was frameless, so not very stiff. The top of the fuselage in the cockpit area is an open hole, so deformation of the upper longerons may have caused some canopy movement. Definitely something that needed to be addressed.
Leeward lost the entire canopy and turtledeck in flight from a previous incarnation of the plane. It had been laminated in place and then pop-riveted. He removed it for some reason (probably to remove the foam inside) and then bonded it back on. The bond didn't hold.
Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:50 pm
Just to add and clarify a few things that have been touched upon.
As Glenn Wegman stated, Ralph Payne was the one who decided to put the H-model tail on the original Precious Metal. It had been erroneously reported that this was due to some directional stability Gary Levitz had encountered in the 1975 Reno race that caused him to be disqualified for going outside the race course. "That" directional instability was a result of a tendon in Gary's foot being operated on about two weeks before Reno and he didn't have the strength that he should have to play with the rudder during the race. The H-tail modification was in the works from the beginning. Ralph's intention was to build an "H-clone" out of a D for Gary, because he felt that it was a much faster airframe. The tail gave better stability at speed, and the intent was to reshape the leading edge of the wings with cuffs to make them more H-like. When asked why Ralph didn't just have Gary buy an H-model in the first place his response (over the top of his ever-present mirrored sunglasses) was "My boy...if that had been an option from the start, we wouldn't be jumping through any of these hoops".
N5483V was truly a plane that never realized it's potential, unfortunately.
And as for the wing-clip on Gallping Ghost. The initial wing clip on the airframe was made in 1970 when it was Cliff Cummins' Miss Candace. The production tips were removed at the break and racing tips installed...about 2 1/2 feet off each side. Over the winter of 1982-83, Dave Zeuschel made an additional wing clip to what was then Wiley Sanders' Jeannie. The thought process behind that clip--which involved another foot and a half off each wing and necessitated cutting the spar on the tips--was that AT THE TIME the race course at Stead was almost 9 1/3 miles long, with substantially longer straightaways...and race speeds in the 430 mph range. The wing clip would be an advantage for going straight in reducing drag, with a calculated increase in drag in the turns.
Unfortunately, Wiley Sanders sold Jeannie to Leeward in the summer of 1983 before any flight testing had been done. So Leeward brought the re-named Specter to Reno that fall and began the first of several years of doing the least with the most. It went from a 450+ plane to a plane that at it's best was an also-ran as Specter/Leeward Air Ranch Special. So it truly never ran at competitive speeds during the 1980's, and essentially was never 'tested' as far as the wing clip effectiveness was concerned.
In the meantime, to fill the void with having sold Jeannie, Dave Zeuschel designed Stiletto with the same wing clip. And it actually was moderately successful, winning Reno '84 in record time. But as the 80's progressed and Stiletto was raced with less and less money and enthusiasm by it's various owners, it fell victim to an ever-shortening race course with less straight and more turn. The last year Stiletto was raced in 1992, they had actually installed some big wing fairings in an attempt to get some of the wingspan back (remember, it had been permanently clipped by taking part of the spar off and couldn't just be bolted back on). So even then it was recognized that the short span on Stiletto (and what would ulitimately be) Galloping Ghost were not optimal for the 'shorter' course at Reno.
So when Leeward decided to bring the Leeward Air Ranch Special out of storage in 2005 and launched the Galloping Ghost concept, a lot of people (myself included) were skeptical of why the short wings were not addressed...because they were essentially 'as is' from when they were built and put on the plane in 1983...untested. Whether it had any impact on the stress load of the aircraft in the accident itself, I don't know...but that is what the situation was.
As for the canopy on that airframe...mention was made about it previously coming off. The canopy when Leeward bought it was tiny...the old Candace/Jeannie one. In 1983, the Unlimited division implemented rules stating that pilots had to wear crash helmets. Up to that point they only had to wear headsets for the radios...and the canopy was very small. Leewards head did not fit very well in the canopy with a helmet on, so they made a quick modification with a larger turtledeck and canopy so he could fit. Unfortunately, during the off-season they never really addressed the 'temporary' modification and it bit them. That was what departed in 1984 during qualifying. For 1985 they made a different shaped, stronger one which it raced with through 1989.
Once they went to do the GG modifications, they used the old canopy off of Ken Burnstine's Foxy Lady/John Crocker's Sumthin' Else. It was a pivoting canopy instead of one that was bolted/latched on from the outside. Unfortunately, the way it was installed on GG was somewhat sloppy. All one has to do is look at static pictures of the airframe at rest with the canopy closed from Reno 2010 or 2011 and you can see visible gaps between the canopy and fuselage, where they should have been flush and smooth. I pointed this out several times to the parties, but the answer I got was that it something they were going to 'address in the future'. That photos show the movable part of the canopy displaced due to airframe twisting is of zero surprise at all to me. If it doesn't fit right when it's static, it's certainly not going to fit right when it's under far worse conditions.
This is not me being critical...choices were made and I'm sure they were made for reasons. But facts remain facts. For whatever that's worth.
Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:23 am
I always enjoy your posts Speedy.
Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:18 am
The replacement for the Miss Candace turtledeck was done in Chino. It was bonded and riveted into place. Leeward later removed it and then only bonded it back into place. That is what flew off. Not disagreeing with Speedy, just clarifying.
Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:51 pm
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