Can you execute a perfect maintenance program?

[mrhenniger]

#1 No excuse, no excuse, no excuse... Yeah, kids, wives and actually making money get in the way of building airplanes.

#1 John S. is correct: No excuses! I'm married (with children), 12-hour workday, mortgage, ad nauseum. This is your passion that we're talking about here! No excuses!

I am not sure I accept the "no excuses" arguement as a "one size fits all" sort of thing. I think what it comes down to is what was previously mentioned... Let the organization/owner know up front what your availability is like, erratic or regular, and what your shedule is and let them decide if that works with their needs.

#2 Monthly/yearly volunteers are just as good as daily volunteers.

I think what has burned me was in the recent past. I am/was (still haven't figured that out since the communication is so poor) involved with a group that carries out restoration work. For those that know the organization I am talking about, please don't mention it here. I am not trying to bad mouth anyone, just using an example. This organization has focused only on it's hands-on volunteers, and they barely have enough to get the work done. There are no volunteers to work in support roles like fundraising, scheduling, communications. They didn't even make the effort to put a volunteer volunteer coordinator in place. They were/are litterally assuming that if their organization existed that volunteers would flock to it. Uhhh.... no communications/publicity volunteers... hence no recruitment going on.

#2 I have lived in places close to organizations involved in historic aircraft preservation and in places not so close. Even if one does live close by, there is no guarantee that the organization will be a particularly volunteer-friendly one. The rising price of fuel makes long-distance commuting distasteful.

I have not experienced an obviously non-volunteer friendly environment, and if I ever did I wouldn't be there for long.

#3 and other un-constructive comments.

Excuse me?

I've been in some of the hardest fraternal organizations to join and prosper in, and can say that the typical approach to vetting people can be abused (some people think junior people are not around to be trained, and only serve the menial chores list, and forget that someone at some point actually may have taken the time to personally teach them something). At some point, they have to let you be trusted.

Amen.

Another point is that I think we really would benefit from a 5-7 day course like the one Flying Tigers used to put on at Kissimmee which went over the basics of aircraft restoration. I'd like to hear from someone who attended/taught that course about if it was effective or not in training people up.

I would like to hear about this as well. I think this is a fantastic idea.

#3 I believe an effective way to "break the ice" as a new warbird rebuild project volunteer is to be able to walk through the hangar door with some mechanical/electrical/cosmetic repair skills already under your belt.

Well yeah that would help. However as a EE working in software, I rarely get close to any actual tools. I also don't think that the landscaping I do around the house provides me with any of the needed skills either. I did write a Windows program for tracking spare parts inventory for the organization I mentioned above, and I didn't even need to step on site to do it. I think organizations could benefit if they "think outside the box" and accept volunteers with skills that could be used in the support functions.

Mike, the only other thing I can say is that we need you and I hope you find a spot for doing what you're interested in. If you can't find a spot, make one at home and gather people around you to do the same thing.

Good points. I will keep that option in mind.

Now, other than convincing your spouse that this will be the greatest idea since buttered bread, how else may we help you get started?

Hmmm... I am looking for other places to volunteer. I think I will look for somplace that could use my wife's skills (she is an educator). She tolerates my warbird habit (airshows and museums), but she would enjoy the social aspect.


This discussion is raising another point... What kind of volunteers do you have in your organization? Are they are metal bashers and wrench turners? or... Does your group have a decent set of support groups? If so what are they and what do they do?

Mike

[Broken-Wrench]

"This discussion is raising another point... What kind of volunteers do you have in your organization? Are they are metal bashers and wrench turners? or... Does your group have a decent set of support groups? If so what are they and what do they do?"


If you want to make friends don't call mechanics metal bashers and wrench turners. Mental pictures of mindless cavemen with clubs come to mind

[mrhenniger]

If you want to make friends don't call mechanics metal bashers and wrench turners. Mental pictures of mindless cavemen with clubs come to mind

My apologies! I didn't realize the term was derogatory and I certainly didn't intend any disrespect. I am honestly just trying to learn here.

"Mechanics" it is!

Mike

[RickH]

Not so fast Broken Wrench, we had a guy ( who works with the NASA T-38s ) who was a former F-4 crew chief who signed his emails as "Iron Man". Problem was that he apparently TYPED his emails with his elbows ! Your head would hurt trying to decipher what he meant! Example: "We toed the airplane". OUCH ! His nickname was quickly changed to... CAVEMAN.

[Dan K]

Hi again, Mike,

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your previous comments, but it appeared to me that part of your desire to volunteer with a historic aircraft preservation organization was to learn some hands-on skills. Since that is what I "read into" your previous comments, my reply suggested that you learn some basic skills (that could be applied to restoration work) from an area tech school or EAA chapter. In other words, one could demonstrate that he had taken the responsibility for learning these skills, rather than expecting that the organization was somehow responsible for doing so. My bad.

From your latest response it would seem that you would prefer to apply skills already in your comfort/mastery zone to help out an organization. That is a worthy endeavor as well, but also an excellent way to step on the collective toes of the establishment. What I mean is, I've witnessed a few episodes of newcomers attempting to help an organization by suggesting some rather revolutionary changes. I'm confident the hearts of these individuals were "in the right place," but in the process wound up alienating themselves from the others. Too much change too fast.

Personally, I really enjoy the camaraderie of working within a group; my current situation doesn't allow that. Have you considered picking up your own project? For me the result has been an enjoyable discovery of pushing one's personal envelope. It's now up to me to learn that new construction technique, fashion the missing part, decipher the plans, etc. Extra headaches? Absolutely! But the level of personal satisfaction at tackling the task yourself (rather than handing the job to the guy/gal who always does the milling/drilling/casting/welding/riveting/etching/priming) can't be compared. Am I suggesting that you go this route? No, I'm just suggesting that it might be a possible avenue to pursue if you are finding continued frustrations attempting to break into an organization.

Sorry for the rambling, everyone; but Mike's comments sound pretty-much where I was at about 20 years ago: I wanted to help, but didn't know where to start. Happily I stumbled across some folks who accepted me, stuck tools in my hands immediately and said, "Give it your best shot"...haven't looked back since.

[Dan K]

Hi again, Mike (again),

This is probably ancient history, but just in case it isn't:

http://eaa245.dhs.org/

Your local EAA chapter meets this Thursday! Off you go now...make some new friends...try to share...

[Forgotten Field]

This is an answer to Mike's post.

I have not experienced an obviously non-volunteer friendly environment, and if I ever did I wouldn't be there for long.

My organization actually tried to kill me a few times. It's called the US Army, and it took me 12 years to realize that it was time to leave. But I had a good time when I was there...

Mike, you are quite right in seeking the level of involvement which best suits you and your wife. And most of these organizations are totally organic- they grow out of single personalities (Fantasy of Flight) all the way to large groups of personalities (CAF, CWH, MAAM). Ultimately they develop their own tone, character, and traditions, and you have to weave through some of these to get to the heart of what is going on. Along the way, you are going to encounter some "organizational hazing" for lack of a better term, described like Aircraft Mech Paul mentioned in dealing with MAAM in his early days. There are lots of positives and negatives about this "hazing" or "rites of passage" for getting into a group, and also lots of techniques for making it through, but I would say that the best way I have observed and encountered to deflect this is to leave your ego at the door and take it in good nature unless it's absolutely intolerable to you.

Forgotten Field wrote:
#3 and other un-constructive comments.


Excuse me?

I was referring to your post where you mentioned that you were holding back on saying some things because they weren't constructive. I didn't mean to offend you, just make reference to what you had written.

Back to what I said about leaving your ego at the door. Having been a member of a fraternity at college, in an elite unit of the US Army, Emergency Medical Services, and now pretty heavily in the warbird movement (all my professional effort and volunteer time is taken up by warbirds), I have a few what may be peculiar views about joining organizations such as a museum or restoration group. There is a process by which we get interested, involved, committed, then go back in reverse and ultimately exit such organizations.

Belonging to these groups certainly involves passion and dedication. For many people this will cost them things in other areas of their lives- that vacation money can get burnt up fast going to airshows. As a result, for most people, there is a very strong sense of proprietary involvement in an organization- some of this is fact-based on what money they spend on projects, and for others it is time invested in activities. Either way, when new people come along, they are automatically looked at as an outsider, horning in, and bothersome. They don't have a sense of the norm in a group, and so tag themselves as "different." If this is not described well, just read any unit history (Band of Brothers is a good one) from WWII and see what people thought about replacements.

Now I'm going to shift gears here and give some thoughts about my work as a Paramedic. Walking into some strange house to help someone in need is a lot like volunteering in a new place. I know from experience that I am going to be greeted by suspicion, mistrust, and fear. So my polished approach is to keep a level tone of voice, not be judgemental, speak in simple terms, be honest, and be willing to accept what comes my way. In 10 years on the street, over 5000 calls, I rarely had a problem getting people to do what I wanted them to do.

So how does this relate to volunteers being accepted in aviation? If you go in with the assumption that people are going to suspect, mistrust, and in some way fear you, you are ahead of the game. If you make your requests simple and direct, and persistent, ultimately you will be successful in getting what you want. As long as you are willing to put in the time, you will be okay. I've been with the Martin Museum for over a year now, and am just now getting recognition from some of the members that I am serious and a dedicated volunteer. But some of them still don't get my committment, and are suspicious of it. But I'm sure with time most of that will go away.

Ultimately, we have to realize that organizational goals change and may not be a part of our own goals. Some people have a hard time recognizing this and as a result get jaded about participating. What it means is that rarely do we find an organization to which we can put lifelong committment. So walking away is a normal part of the process. Some volunteers don't know when to quit, and will make everybody miserable around them because they will still show up and do nothing but detract from the group. Tough to get organizational goals done with that kind of environment.

As another aside- volunteer coordinators are not easy to find and worth their weight in gold. Perhaps that is a role you can play in that organization you mentioned?

Anyway, I don't mean to reverse the thread and focus on what volunteers should do to break the ice- I don't think there is a shortage of volunteers out there and believe organizations should be more sensitive to their needs. But I did want to comment that this is a common element in these organizations and if you can deal with it up front, you will be more satisfied and successful as a volunteer.

[mrhenniger]

Dan K, Forgotten Field... Fantastic posts. You have managed to put a wealth of experience and wisdom into a few paragraphs. Good job.

Some very good stuff has been said here, most of which can be applied to just about anyone. As for me specifically, some time I'll step into world of the "hands on" work in an organization looking for volunteers, maybe after some time with the EAA as suggested. In the mean time, I think I will remain working in area of comfort/expertise as it compatible with my current carreer and limitations of spare time. Currently I have some long hours, and expect have unsheduled travel for work. In those circumstances it is difficult to committ to an organization's schedule, even on a monthly basis because you never know for sure when you are out of town. On the upside my area of expertise can be done no matter where I am assuming of course I am traveling with a laptop. Time contributions can also be squeezed into any part of the day or week when the opportunity arrises. In the end the idea is to help advance the cause of Warbird preservation for the preservation of history. If someone can do that using their current skill set, which may not be a mechanical skill set, then both the organization and volunteer win.

Mike

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

Paul,

I apologize to Forgotten Field for getting off-topic but I'm a little confused by one of the points you continue to bring up in several of your posts. On one hand it sounds like you believe only licensed "volunteer mechanics" should be working on Warbirds, and on the other hand you agree with what I've written. I clearly state that it is my belief that you need not be a licensed mechanic to work on these aircraft to do high quality work, however a license holder must be present to inspect and sign off the completed work. I believe the FAR's support this with the caveat that the work be carried out under the supervision of, and be inspected and signed off by a licensed A&P, IA or both when required. Understand that most if not all museums could not fly their airplanes to the extent they currently do without the help of high quality unlicensed mechanics and fabricators.

Not picking, just looking for clarity in whatever point you are attempting to make. If you feel I'm in error, that’s fine...we will agree to disagree!

John

John,

Not a problem. The FAR's do state that ultimately the License holder carries the responsability. I have no problem, personally, with working with guys who are good mechanically inclined indivduals. As long as they are supervised and their works meets the standards, there isn't any problem. But also from a personal perspective, I would prefer to be the guy who starts and finishes a job. Mainly because I know where I am in the middle of it if I have to leave it for a time. Having a corps of volunteer license holders would be almost impossible to accomplish. Because for many guys, aviation is a JOB...not a love affair and they can afford the lifestyle they want. For myself, I really DO enjoy the idea of volunteering my time to a cause of maintaining these aircraft. On a personal level it puts me in a similar "class" as my father, who is one of those "elder statesmen" of the aviation trade, who has been there done that, with aircraft of the nature of Warbirds...and some of the now reffered to as "Classic Propliners".

Getting back on point though...no...I have no problem with volunteers who CAN exhibit the desire, and mechanical ability to accomplish the work. The trust level comes along after a time and the folks who ultimately carry the responsability for the job, the license holders, will come to lean more on those volunteers who don't carry the A&P ticket in their pocket. Just a matter of time and trust. I had hoped to convey that before....trouble is, with WRITING something, it doesn't always convey the intent of what you are attempting to get across. People read things, and write things, differently. Interpretation is a HUGE factor in trying to convey a point, and writing it it out doesn't always do that for you.

Sorry for the rather LONG delay in the reply, I just redid my entire computer and installed Windows XP....trying to get used to a new opertaing system and the way things run on it takes a bit of time from being so used to Win98.

Hope this helps....

This is a very active and informative topic...one I hope continues....because once we stop disccussiing it...keeping the information flowing like this....the folks may lapse in the awareness of the topic...MAINTENANCE.....

Paul

[Forgotten Field]

Hey Paul,
Good answer. Now how about taking a stab at this- what makes a perfect volunteer (in a maintenance sense)?

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

Hey Paul,
Good answer. Now how about taking a stab at this- what makes a perfect volunteer (in a maintenance sense)?

Hmmmm,

Perfection is unatainble. What would I look for in a person who is volunteering his or her time to the organization I belong to perhaps would be more to the point of your question (?).

The "perfect" volunteer is a guy who shows up to do whatever is asked of him. Form a maintenance standpoint down to the lowliest of jobs...sweeping up the hangar. From the standpoint of maintaining or mechanical ability though I think you would have to ask them first off what they are capable of.

For example...Let's say you and I got together and we both had a large collection of flyable aircraft. ALL of them were airworthy but perhaps some had not flown in recent times. Now, we have found ourselves the benficiary of befriending guys, whom we both came to trust, who were rated and above all CURRENT and proficient on flying the planes we have. We now decide that we've got planes...we've got pilots now...let go to some airshows...GREAT. One problem....all of the planes MUST pass the Annual as required by the FAR's. We only have a handful of people...friends...fellow pilots...a a few license holding A&P's involved. Crew Cheif's for lack of a better term. Now we want to fly these planes..we've got the money...we've got the pilots. Where are we gonna find enough guys to help get the annuals done ?? VOLUNTEERS....(?)

Okay...we've got folks lining up to come in...some want to help out with cleaning...some want to administrate.....and we've even got mechanic's (auto...diesel...etc)....sadly though we don't get alot of volunteer license holders. Okay....no problem. Put those with mechanical aptitude together with guys who know what they are doing...let's see how they work out.

In the example I am using...auto and diesel being vastly different from aviation....and I mean ABSOLUTLEY ZERO OFFENSE......the guys who learn quick and do it right....those are the guys you don't have to supervise with a magnifying glass....because they picked it up quick. The guys who come in and as one example that was previously citied "something about torching an attach angle off".........sorry pal....go sort rivets.

My point is this....a perfect volunteer is one that can and will do what it takes to get whatever job done for the organization they are volunteering for. As they progress, you'll get the feel for how the guys work. It comes down to several things....desire, committment, and ability. Desire to do what it takes..get the job done and do it right. Committment to getting it done and done right.....versus just showing up hoping for a ride someday. And ability......how do you the owner percieve them in the role you asked them to perform. Otherwise....you and I and the pilots you found aren't gonna go flying in our collection anytime soon.

Does this answer any part of your question ??

Just my two cents......

Paul

[Broken-Wrench]

Where is the Rivet sorter? Send him over to my place I have a 55 gallon drum of hardware! Seriously sorting rivets and hardware teachs you about hardware. If you try to learn what your sorting.