FAA shuts down Collings Foundation tours.....

[shrike]

I was talking to a buddy who has sat on some NTSB boards for warbird mishaps. He was predicting the NTSB report might give the FAA a gig for not maintaining proper oversight of Collings.

I've been explicitly avoiding expressing that.

[Mike]

I was talking to a buddy who has sat on some NTSB boards for warbird mishaps. He was predicting the NTSB report might give the FAA a gig for not maintaining proper oversight of Collings.

The same thing happened in the UK between the AAIB and the CAA over the Shoreham crash

[marine air]

delete

Last edited by marine air on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

[marine air]

A few random thoughts:
1) The B-25 owned by the NASM was donated in the 1980’s and it was flown there from south Florida. I don’t remember the guys name but the story is that the NASM was actively looking for one at the time. The story was that on delivery, the owner buzzed his alma mater in Gainesville dipping down into the stadium a bit during a football game. He buzzed a couple of other places on his way north . Of course, the FAA did what the FAA does. He didn’t care as he’d been given a terminal cancer prognosis, anyway. The airplane isn’t restored to authentic NASM standards, it’s a 1980’s airshow restoration.
2) The crew chief, wasn’t he a local enthusiast and member of the Connecticut Air National Guard? What was he rated on, C-17 or C-130? To me, it almost sounds like he received some “ OJT” that weekend and they put him onboard. As a former 7 level crew chief on the Lockheed C-130H, I can say not all that much would transfer over to the Boeing B-17G. Enthusiasm? Also, the no seatbelt for him gives me pause for concern. Statistically, Injuries and fatalities increase dramatically in accidents where occupants aren’t wearing a seatbelt or the seatbelt system failed.

Trying to remember all my flight ( as a passenger)on military aircraft. Let’s see, C-130A, C-130H, C-5B, C-12, C-2, UH-1N, C-9, C-130J, never seen any crew member not sitting down and buckled up on takeoffs and landing. Civilian, exactly twice in transport category aircraft. One was a Citation 500, and a PBY. Both times I was a passenger, buckled in and didn’t know until afterwards , one or more people didn’t have seatbelts. It just doesn’t happen. Skydivers, typically aren’t buckled in but they have parachutes and many jump planes have a roll type door that closes, to improve safety and performance. The B-17s used to take passengers in the tail gunners position, however they are stuck back there and not allowed to come forward in flight. It would be a tight squeeze around the tail wheel. Maybe , there was a seatbelt for the crew chief onboard somewhere.
Crew chiefs don’t look over the shoulder on takeoff,check engine temps etc. Flight engineers do that function and there are very few aircraft types that require an FE anymore. It’s becoming an obsolete rating. My understanding of the purpose of a “ crew chief” flight assistant “ or whatever, onboard the B-17 is to make sure the passengers are okay, buckled in, and not having any problems. It’s rare, but occasionally a passenger has a fear of heights, and they freak out once airborne. I think the civilian B-17 has a minimum required crew of two. The flight engineer, navigator, radioman, etc. have been eliminated and the Captain and FO do it all. Sands as on the Falcons and Citations I fly. We do it all, including chucking luggage, putting the red gear on, assisting with fueling operations, towing, everything.
3) Remember the huge crash several years ago at Oshkosh during the Navy portion of the warbird show? Howard Purdue was in his a Bearcat and was told by the ground signaler to taxi a few hundred feet forward for spacing as they load runway 18 with aircraft for a multi plane launch. He’s sitting there, stationary, when he gets clobbered by a Corsair traveling about 80 mph. The Corsair pilot thought he’d been cleared for takeoff and his left wing clipped the Bearcat’s right wing. Mr. Pardue felt he was 100% free from wrongdoing and there was much litigation. He was assessed 30% culpable for the accident. I don’t know what percent the pilot of the Corsair, the EAA and FAA control tower were assessed. You can watch the video on YouTube and form your own opinion. All this to say, this is part of what the NTSB, the FAA, the Collings Foundation, and then of course the flight crew have and the trial lawyers have to work through. If the surviving new crew chief accepted responsibility and duties while onboard that flight, then he also incurred liability.

[ZRX61]

A few random thoughts:
3) Remember the huge crash several years ago at Oshkosh during the Navy portion of the warbird show? Howard Purdue was in his a Bearcat and was told by the ground signaler to taxi a few hundred feet forward for spacing as they load runway 18 with aircraft for a multi plane launch. He’s sitting there, stationary, when he gets clobbered by a Corsair traveling about 80 mph. The Corsair pilot thought he’d been cleared for takeoff and his left wing clipped the Bearcat’s right wing. Mr. Pardue felt he was 100% free from wrongdoing and there was much litigation. He was assessed 30% culpable for the accident. I don’t know what percent the pilot of the Corsair, the EAA and FAA control tower were assessed. You can watch the video on YouTube and form your own opinion. All this to say, this is part of what the NTSB, the FAA, the Collings Foundation, and then of course the flight crew have and the trial lawyers have to work through. If the surviving new crew chief accepted responsibility and duties while onboard that flight, then he also incurred liability.

Which may be a mitigated owing to CF's non-training & falsified records etc.

[Matt Gunsch]

3) Remember the huge crash several years ago at Oshkosh during the Navy portion of the warbird show? Howard Purdue was in his a Bearcat and was told by the ground signaler to taxi a few hundred feet forward for spacing as they load runway 18 with aircraft for a multi plane launch. He’s sitting there, stationary, when he gets clobbered by a Corsair traveling about 80 mph. The Corsair pilot thought he’d been cleared for takeoff and his left wing clipped the Bearcat’s right wing. Mr. Pardue felt he was 100% free from wrongdoing and there was much litigation. He was assessed 30% culpable for the accident. I don’t know what percent the pilot of the Corsair, the EAA and FAA control tower were assessed. You can watch the video on YouTube and form your own opinion. All this to say, this is part of what the NTSB, the FAA, the Collings Foundation, and then of course the flight crew have and the trial lawyers have to work through. If the surviving new crew chief accepted responsibility and duties while onboard that flight, then he also incurred liability.

I was there that year, I was in the backseat of T-6 Lead and we were waiting to move the T-6s onto 27, it was not a ground controller who told him to move. Howard was going to take off on 18, the last of the T-34s had taken off, the navy flight, which Howard was leading were staged behind the T-34s. Howard asked show boss to taxi further down the runway to get all of the navy flight planes onto the runway so they could complete their run ups.
Ladd screwed the pooch and was not man enough to admit he screwed up, instead he tried to blame everyone else

[marine air]

Who was “Ladd?” The Corsair pilot?

[Kyleb]

Who was “Ladd?” The Corsair pilot?

Yep.

[Ken]

Trying to remember all my flight ( as a passenger)on military aircraft. Let’s see, C-130A, C-130H, C-5B, C-12, C-2, UH-1N, C-9, C-130J, never seen any crew member not sitting down and buckled up on takeoffs and landing.

USAF C-130 instructors & evaluators had/have authority to stand during takeoff and landing under certain circumstances. Felt weird but was often necessary to be able to fully view, in my case, what the pilots were doing. If I had a choice, I strapped in at the bunk seat.

Ken

[Randy Haskin]

Who was “Ladd?” The Corsair pilot?

His name is Laird Doctor.

[Randy Haskin]

2) The crew chief, wasn’t he a local enthusiast and member of the Connecticut Air National Guard? What was he rated on, C-17 or C-130? To me, it almost sounds like he received some “ OJT” that weekend and they put him onboard.

My understanding is that's not what happened -- he was an experienced Collings guy well before that weekend.

His statements about lack of formal training might be better taken in light of future litigation proceedings.

[WIXerGreg]

As far as I know he made the rounds with the tour (not just local to that area) and had been doing so for some time. He was on my 909 flight in Indiana in 2016 so he'd been around for at least several years.

[marine air]

Well, my condolences go out to all the families that lost a loved one, those that were injured, and those that were affected in any way. I can’t see how anyone “ wins” in this situation. My heart goes out to everyone.
I know, I dreamed of touring someday as a crew member on one of these magnificent historic aircraft. Initially, I thought my dream had been ruined by one accident. Not unlike the F-86 that crashed into the ice cream parlor and quashed the jet warbird movement for fifteen years. Optimistically, I believe that the EAA and others were running a “ by the book” rides program and this unique experience can return to the skies one day soon. This makes two consecutive B-17 losses where mechanical issues had something to do with the total loss of an asset. So, maybe that needs to be looked at.
Also, just like in most major corporations, there needs to be a succession plan for the pilots of these aircraft. Just like mandatory retirement at age 65 for the airlines, there needs to be a time when a guy mo es from the left seat to the right seat . Accidents usually happen from one issue but a miltitude, say five or more issues going on.

[Mike]

This makes two consecutive B-17 losses where mechanical issues had something to do with the total loss of an asset.

Three, with the loss of the French IGN's F-BEEA at Binbrook in 1989 during the filming of 'Memphis Belle'.

[sandiego89]

While "mechanical issues" may be noted as a ultimate cause, it is important to note that there are procedural issues that can be contributory, or the main factors that lead to a mechanical issue.

My teenage fried had the engine on his nice Datsun 240Z seize up, ultimately a "mechanical issue", Contributory factor: dumba$$ never checked the oil level and it was at least several quarts low. Contributory factor 2: driving it like he stole it, pushing the red line- kerblammo.

By easily summarizing things as "mechanical issues" the focus can falsely be on the part, the age of the airframe, etc.