Swoose at NMUSAF

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:37 pm

Mustangdriver wrote:

Quote:

Her time is now. Restoration, documentation, and preservation are starting right away.

I sure hope it is Documentation first, then preservation and restoration. The eagerness and enthusiasm to get going on a new project has been responsible for the loss of untold volumes of history with countless Warbirds.

She is in a remarkable state of preservation and all of that needs to be thoroughly documented and saved. Since you all are going to bring her back to her combat configuration I assume that all of her present custom interior will be removed. What will happen to this material? Will it be preserved and stored or disposed of? Will this process be documented and photographed?

Mustangdriver you can help to make sure that what is there is properly documented by taking lots of digital pictures. By lots I mean thousands of shots showing all of the detail of what is there and what gets uncovered throughout the process. The interior parts should be documented and saved and not discarded. All of the material is an important part of her history and should be treated with great care and reverence. This is the only complete as well as un restored example of an early B-17 and there is so much for us to learn from this extremely rare bird. The small details of how she was made and how she came to be in her present configuration can easily become lost forever if misunderstood or missed and not documented.

Please, please, please make sure what is there is at the least photographed from every possible angle at high resolution and saved for future reference and to preserve her history. Please do the same all throughout the process and try to instill this importance to everyone who works on her. Individual workers will find little treasures as they work and if they don’t document them they may be lost.

She is worthy of such efforts and care now before any work begins and it should continue throughout the restoration.

Shay · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:39 pm

SaxMan wrote:

Great model, but shouldn't the rudder markings be "19B", not "11B" as the Swoose was part of the 19th BG?

Perhaps this is the reason:

Wikipedia wrote:

The 38th of 42 B-17Ds built by Boeing, 40-3097 was accepted by the Army Air Corps on 25 April 1941 in Seattle, Washington. It was ferried to Hickam Field, Hawaii, 13-14 May 1941, by the 19th Bomb Group as part of a group of 21 B-17C and Ds slated to equip the 11th Bomb Group. In response to the perceived hostile activities of the Japanese military, in September 1941, the War Department sent nine B-17s based in Hawaii to Clark Field, the Philippines, assigned to the 14th Bomb Squadron, 11th Bomb Group aircraft number 21, arriving at Del Monte, the only field besides Clark that could handle the Fortresses, on 12 September.

The Japanese surprise attacks of 8 December 1941 on military installations on Clark Field and the Philippine Islands, a full eight hours after the Pearl Harbor raid, caught much of the United States military on the ground and only 17 of the 35 Flying Fortresses escaped destruction. One of the survivors, 40-3097, named "Ole Betsy", was pressed into bombing duty for the next two months until newer B-17Es began to reach the Pacific in January 1942. Spare parts were scarce and ground crews patched up battle damage with parts salvaged from other destroyed aircraft. The last combat mission flown by 40-3097 was a raid on the east coast of Borneo on 11 January 1942, piloted by the commander of the 19th Bomb Group, Major Cecil Combs.

Never knew she carried the name "Ole Betsy"

I really like this nice picture of her later on

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Mark_Pilkington · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:47 pm

Steve Nelson wrote:

And once again, there's a bunch of black grime coming out of the wing vents.. :roll:

SN

It would seem the exaust air flow is disrupted in the area of the wing vents and can conceivably spread around that area of the wing?

regards

Mark Pilkington

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:41 pm

Taigh Ramey wrote:

Mustangdriver wrote:

Quote:

Her time is now. Restoration, documentation, and preservation are starting right away.

I sure hope it is Documentation first, then preservation and restoration. The eagerness and enthusiasm to get going on a new project has been responsible for the loss of untold volumes of history with countless Warbirds.

She is in a remarkable state of preservation and all of that needs to be thoroughly documented and saved. Since you all are going to bring her back to her combat configuration I assume that all of her present custom interior will be removed. What will happen to this material? Will it be preserved and stored or disposed of? Will this process be documented and photographed?

Mustangdriver you can help to make sure that what is there is properly documented by taking lots of digital pictures. By lots I mean thousands of shots showing all of the detail of what is there and what gets uncovered throughout the process. The interior parts should be documented and saved and not discarded. All of the material is an important part of her history and should be treated with great care and reverence. This is the only complete as well as un restored example of an early B-17 and there is so much for us to learn from this extremely rare bird. The small details of how she was made and how she came to be in her present configuration can easily become lost forever if misunderstood or missed and not documented.

Please, please, please make sure what is there is at the least photographed from every possible angle at high resolution and saved for future reference and to preserve her history. Please do the same all throughout the process and try to instill this importance to everyone who works on her. Individual workers will find little treasures as they work and if they don’t document them they may be lost.

She is worthy of such efforts and care now before any work begins and it should continue throughout the restoration.

I agree with you 100% THe NMUSAF is faced with the same problem that the NASM when it comes to what time frame to restore her to. I am going to take every picture I can from all angles. I have done that for the Belle, and will continue to do that until she is on display. Once the projects are finished I will have complete documentation from the time the Belle and Swoose rolled in the doors of the shop, through preservation and restoration. Anyone who wants copies of these CD's is more than welcome. The Swoose is going to see a different style of restoration. Where she retains her interioe which I think may be left intact, the Belle had none of her interior. The Belle is a complete rebuild, where the Swoose may be a partial restoration and part preservation.

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:03 pm

Taigh Ramey wrote:

Mustangdriver wrote:

Quote:

Her time is now. Restoration, documentation, and preservation are starting right away.

I sure hope it is Documentation first, then preservation and restoration. The eagerness and enthusiasm to get going on a new project has been responsible for the loss of untold volumes of history with countless Warbirds.

She is in a remarkable state of preservation and all of that needs to be thoroughly documented and saved. Since you all are going to bring her back to her combat configuration I assume that all of her present custom interior will be removed. What will happen to this material? Will it be preserved and stored or disposed of? Will this process be documented and photographed?

Mustangdriver you can help to make sure that what is there is properly documented by taking lots of digital pictures. By lots I mean thousands of shots showing all of the detail of what is there and what gets uncovered throughout the process. The interior parts should be documented and saved and not discarded. All of the material is an important part of her history and should be treated with great care and reverence. This is the only complete as well as un restored example of an early B-17 and there is so much for us to learn from this extremely rare bird. The small details of how she was made and how she came to be in her present configuration can easily become lost forever if misunderstood or missed and not documented.

Please, please, please make sure what is there is at the least photographed from every possible angle at high resolution and saved for future reference and to preserve her history. Please do the same all throughout the process and try to instill this importance to everyone who works on her. Individual workers will find little treasures as they work and if they don’t document them they may be lost.

She is worthy of such efforts and care now before any work begins and it should continue throughout the restoration.

If the interior is to be removed I would love to see the interior on display by perhaps fabricating a "cutaway" Swoose fuselage or something similar maybe even out of wood that could sit along side of the Swoose that would help display how this aircraft changed through out it's lifetime. It would also be nice to see some really nicely fabricated models along with it showing how it changed on the exterior along with many pictures.

Ryan

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:40 pm

That is a great idea. Do you mind if I suggest that?

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

mustangdriver wrote:

The Swoose is going to see a different style of restoration. Where she retains her interioe which I think may be left intact, the Belle had none of her interior. The Belle is a complete rebuild, where the Swoose may be a partial restoration and part preservation.

What do you mean that her interior may be left intact? Do you mean that the interior will be the VIP transport and the exterior will be the bomber configuration? I really don't care how they restore her, as long as it's not some unauthentic hybrid mismatch. I would hate to see two different styles on her. I hope they just pick one configuration and stick with that throughout.

I also hope they don't throw away any of the excess "junk" from the restoration of Swoose. They should take lessons from the NASM, when they do their restorations. In the past, NASM would cut a piece of scrap metal, from some airplane, like the Douglas World Cruiser, and mount the metal in a frame display along with a picture of the aircraft. They sold that framed mimento in the gift shop. The Air Force Museum should do the same. There are enough rabid warbird nuts out there, that they could cut tiny pieces of Swoose scrap, put it in a framed display and sell that at the Gift Shop. They could probably raise several thousand dollars that way, which could go towards the restoration and preservation of Swoose.

Just my 2 cents!

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:55 pm

I am a big fan of that as well with the scrap metal gift shop idea. No what I meant was, I have not heard the decision as to what time frame the restoration will be done. Remember it just got there yesterday. There is alot of planning and documentation to be done, before anything can be touched. THe important thing is that this is now starting. When that is done, then the restoration can start. I can't wait to see what time frame will be picked, but I was told a time frame will be decided on, and then that is how it will look. No hybrid or half and half stuff. I have to be honest and say, I am glad I don't have to make that ddecision. In my opinion all stages of her career are important, so is there really a wrong choice?

Shay · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:58 pm

Is this move a transfer of ownership?

Or just a trade or loan as in the Dora's case?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

mustangdriver wrote:

I can't wait to see what time frame will be picked, but I was told a time frame will be decided on, and then that is how it will look. No hybrid or half and half stuff. I have to be honest and say, I am glad I don't have to make that ddecision. In my opinion all stages of her career are important, so is there really a wrong choice?

Great, I'm glad to hear that! Yea, that's a HUGE decision, and I'm glad I don't have to make it. The decision they make will impact the rest of the Swoose's life and everybody who sees her. I'm glad she's at least in good hands and that I have a chance of seeing her complete in my lifetime.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:28 pm

It was a change of ownership. The NMUSAF now owns the Swoose while the Shoo Shoo Baby will be placed on loan to the NASM. I will be sad to see SSB leave, but it will be great to have a combat vet B-17 in our NASM. The B-17 is one of the most important aircraft in U.S. history. In my opinion there was always a great void in the Udvar Hazy without the B-17 there. As for the NMUSAF, are there two better B-17's to have in the eye's of air force history than the Memphis Belle and Swoose?
So let me hear what you guys think, and post pics please. What time frame should the Swoose be restored to? I would like to get maybe a general idea of what everyone thinks, and present that to the General. Once again I am a nobody at the museum, but I am a nobody that they sometimes listen to. Maybe we can play a part in the decision making on how to display it.

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1028

Fantastic thread! Great work MustangDriver. I was happy about the Memphis Belle going to Dayton but this is just over the top great news.
I can't remember being so happy over the fate of an aircraft before now.

Great job to everyone involved and great ideas from Wixers about the displays and such. My vote goes for basically keeping her in her current markings UNLESS the interior can be preserved in a display like Ryan suggested, then I vote for her Del Monte configuration assuming they have all the goodies for the interior. I'm going to try and forget she was called Ole Betsy however. And since this is the NMUSAF I'll bet they can fix up the inside as it was then. If not then leave in the purty seats.

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:10 pm

Personally, even though I'm a nut for preserving artifacts in thier original state, I'd like to see Swoose in a bomber configuration, complete with the underside tub.

Since I started it with an ill-advised comment, I'll respond about the "exhaust stains" on the model. The B-17 gurus here know more than me, but AFAIK the only staining on the top of the wings is oil. The hot air vents do disrupt the airflow, but the staining flows around them (see photo.) Many modelers make the mistake of having black "exhaust" streaks coming out of the vents. Once again, I apologize for even mentioning it, because it really is a nicely done model.

SN

hang the expense · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:54 pm

I cant believe that this is even being discussed.Bomber or transport. This birds significance is she is a combat bird period. :shock:

Dan Johnson II · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 1:49 am **Posts:** 659

hang the expense wrote:

I cant believe that this is even being discussed.Bomber or transport. This birds significance is she is a combat bird period. :shock:

Yep. Get her back to her combat days when her and her early sisters were all we had.

If anything showing how much the 17 was transformed from even the Swoose to the Belle would be something to show folks. And as long as we're talking about it. How bout claiming ownership of Swamp Ghost and restoring an E with the remote belly turret to sit between the Sweoose and the Belle?

Oh and keep Shoo Shoo Baby so we've got em all covered in one place. Fort heaven

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