B-17 Miss Liberty Belle in WWII

[mustangdriver]

Wow! YES for sure. I sent a P.M.

[DebiBonas52]

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to anyone. I ened up in the hospital last week and actually went into full arrest and was resuscitated last Wednesday night. I'm doing better, but it will be a while before I get back into the full swing of things.

Debi Bonas Kearney

[mustangdriver]

I hope this finds you well on your way to a speedy recovery.

[mustangdriver]

We want to thank Mr. Roy Oneil for donating his newspaper from the day that The Schweinfurt Flag was displayed on the base of the 305th. Ian was able to inform us of some interesting facts of things that they did while the flag was displayed there. I will leave it up to him to tell those stories.

[Jigs Bumper]

We want to thank Mr. Roy Oneil for donating his newspaper from the day that The Schweinfurt Flag was displayed on the base of the 305th. Ian was able to inform us of some interesting facts of things that they did while the flag was displayed there. I will leave it up to him to tell those stories.

Over to me I guess!!! I did indeed share a few things with Chris and Rob while we shared a SKYPE call a while ago. This all relating to the Schweinfurt flag and its first few days in the hands of our 305th BG.

Just to lay down the background; the 305th suffered huge losses on the infamous Black Thursday mission of 14th Oct '43. Of 18 planes which took off, only two returned that evening. (1 ship returned soon after take off, unable to find the rest of the group formation. Two more aborted early with mechanical failures and returned to base. This left 15 B-17's heading out on the mission). The reasons and circumstances of the losses have been debated at length many times. The best record can be found by reading George Kuhl's Wrong Place, Wrong Time. A truly thought provoking rendition of the Schweinfurt mission from the 305th survivors perspective. Anyway...

As US ground forces advanced into Germany in 1945, the US 42nd 'Rainbow' Infantry Division found themselves at Schweinfurt Germany. They walked into the City and the major industrial centre of ball bearing manufacturing based there. Word reached them of the previous losses by the 8th AF in 1943, and the Black Thursday mission. So, the Nazi flag which had flown above the factory, was taken down and prepared for presentation back to the 8th. It was painted with sign written words, and I paraphrase this a little, 'For Your Losses of October 14th 1943, we the 42nd Rainbow Division present this Flag in memory of all those who gave their lives'. I have the exact words somewhere here... however, the flag once adorned with this was transported through military channels all the way to 8th AF HQ's High Wycombe. Once there the flag was prepared for final presentation, decided by Gen Doolittle to be the 305th Bomb Group. Due to their losses, the biggest on that particular mission. The flag moved from Pine Tree across to Brampton Grange and 1st Air Division. At Brampton a further handover ceremony took place with 1st AD Commanders, and 40th Combat Wing HQ's staff (Colonel Mustoe) present in the garden behind the main estate house at the Grange. The flag, once flown above the factory at Schweinfurt, finally arrived at Station 105 Chelveston. In a formal ceremony in one of the T2 hangars, the flag was hung across the back wall, before a huge gathered crowd of 305th personnel of all ranks. Their CO, Colnel Henry 'Mac' MacDonald spoke of the human cost and sacrifice after many long years of combat, and of the flag behind him and what it symbolised as part of that tragic conflict; in particularly the still very raw emotions of that Black Thursday mission, which many present had witnessed for themselves.

The punchline to this story, which I shared with Chris and Rob, is the words of Colonel 'Mac' immediately after the ceremonies. He gave the word that any of those present who wished to, could present themselves at the flag, which had been taken down and lain upon the hangar floor, and urinate upon it! Ive spoken to many who were present that day and they readily recall every man marched over the flag, and most duly did indeed pee over it!!

In the years after, several flags have been presented as 'the flag' at many locations, including Grissom. The flag itself is distinctive having only a white circle and swastika in centre. It carries NO cross on the flag itself, just a plain red background. And of course it will have hand painted in the bottom corner, the presentation script from the Rainbow Division.

I hasten to add.... in years after the hangar ceremonies, the flag was laundered a number of times and so the odour of its demise at Chelveston in '45 will not be obvious!

One of many stories which make up the jigsaw of history at our group.

PS. The newspaper is a great addition for your displays Chris. Not too many survive, its a real treasure. Thanks for Roy for such a generous gesture in its presentation.

Ian White
305th BGMA UK Contact

[RAMC181]

All the best,
PB

[Jigs Bumper]

Thank you Paul. I should have pulled my copies out from here!
I also sent over to Chris a couple of additional shots including I think the one in the garden at Brampton Grange, showing Colonel Anthony Mustoe, Col 'Mac', and others of 1st AD with the flag before it was carried over to Chelveston. Also copied up the hangar shot which is actually shown in the newpaper front page.

Ian

[Django]

That is a great photo.

[rtoneil]

In my archive (WW2 Foot locker), I found this article from the Stars and Stripes newspaper dated May 8, 1944. It tells of a no-loss streak by the 365th Bomb Squadron/305th Bomb Group. Of course the Miss Liberty Belle was a member of this squadron and the article talks about experiences of Dick Wolff and crew while flying her.

When did this streak end? More than likely, it was on May 11, 1944 (three days after the article was published). On that day, on a mission to Saarbrucken, Alex Thomaides was flying Lady Liberty ( a ship mentioned in the article). He and six members of his crew were killed when the Lady Liberty went down. I was there in a B-17 named Bettsy Ann, and may very well have seen the Lady Liberty go down, but don't really remember. I do remember that our ball gunner's grandparents lived in Saarbrucken and he was extremely upset emotionally.

Thought participants of this thread would like to read it so it's reproduced below.

Ian: I'll send the original clipping to you along with another original of the Rushden newspaper article about the Schweinfurt flag which I just found. This original is not as well preserved as the one I sent to Chris Henry. It has been folded into a small size for 66 years and has darkened quite a bit. Maybe it could be ironed flat. I remember standing in the big gathering that day and specifically remember Col Macdonald's comment to the effect that he wished there was enough time for each of us to come up and personally urinate on that flag.

Roy O'Neil

[Jigs Bumper]

Howdy Roy
Thanks for your follow up posting on this subject, and a big thank you for sharing the Bud Hutton article from Stars 'n' Stripes. I think I have come across this article before, plus I have several comments written in the 365th Sqn diaries during that time frame, which all comment upon the continued good luck for the Squadron in flying with no losses. I would need to open up the files to re-read the pages and see exactly what they said. But it all relates to Hutton's write up, after his personal visit to Chelveston and the 365th Sqn there.

Many thanks for your sending a copy of the newspaper! I'll treasure this when it arrives. No problem in a few folded pages. Its always understood they are many years old and really and truly, they were never intended to survive for such a long time. Its amazing that it has indeed been saved, and not become the wrapping for fish and chips!!! You ever experienced our traditional snack while you were in England? Every Twon and many Villagers had a small shop serving these meals. It was (still is) traditional to serve battered fish and chipped potato's, I know you guys refer to them as fries, but our chips are bigger. Its said, in the good old days when this was done, the printing ink would somehow add to the flavour of the fish and chips, plus vinegar and salt too. Sounds unpleasant to some, but, having true 'Fish and Chips' like this is a real deal. When the UK joined the EU in the 1970's, gradually laws changed because of Strasbourg and European law, and the serving of such food on old newspaper was outlawed. Health and safety!!! Passing of another tradition....Anyhow, I know lots of newspapers were recycled like this and I'm sure many of the local copies would have been resigned to this. So, your copies will be the very few which escaped this.

Interesting you remembered the Nazi flag and the 'urinating' incident. I'd heard this from several other 305th who were lucky enough to be present that day. Your comments verify that now.

You mentioned B-17G 'BETSY ANN'. She is one of the few century ships on the 305th. Flew 122 missions I think?? Survived WW2 and returned to USDA, finally salvaged for pots and pans. 'BETSY ANN' is one of the few we do not have a photo of at all. I'm not even sure what noseart she carried if any, whether it was a fancy lady or cartoon? Can you remember that at all?? I'm sure she would have become a legend on the Squadron because of reaching a unique high mission tally.

I spoke with Barb Tesch and the newsletter has been mailed out end of last week. So, the first deliveries should be hitting mailboxes this week across the US.... I hope you enjoy the article you helped to contribute to.

All the best
Ian

[rtoneil]

Ian:

Thanks for the continuing information you provide us about the 305th. I well remember having fish and chiips with vinegar and salt served in newspaper. One time, a shop owner acceded to our pleas and opened up after hours for us.
The English people were very good to us.

I did fly on the BETSY ANN (have notes and the form 1) but have no specific memory of her. It's surprising that there are no pictures of a B-17 flown on 122 missions. As you told us, there is only one known picture of the original MISS LIBERTY BELLE (with Challen Hunt crew) and she had 65 missions. Undoubtedly, there are pictures of both of these B-17s flying in formation but they just can't be identified by name. Maybe a reader will realize he or she has something rare and will come forward with a picture.

Roy

[Jigs Bumper]

Hi Roy

Yes, the mysteries of photos and lack of some in many cases really causes problems. Especially for our archive here, and when it relates to an important ship or crew or event. I have no doubt that pictures were taken, many times. But somehow those have been misplaced, badly filed or dare I say destroyed over time. I am convinced many personally taken pictures will be out there in albums in attics or basements. I just pray every day these will surface and be saved.

I guessed the fish and chips would have been something you would have sampled at least once!! The Towns of Higham and Rushden had several places like this.

I just started checking the 305th diary logs for April and May, on another project. Came across comments regards 365th and their long stretch of missions and NO losses. seems they reached 58 in all, which ended on May 13th, a bad omen, when 2 x ships went down on Stettin mission.

Ian

[rtoneil]

Ian:

Did the 305th logs for April & May 1944 not show that LADY LIBERTY (a 365th B-17 piloted by Lt. Alex Thomaides) was lost on May 11, 1944 on a mission to Saarbrucken?

Roy

[Jigs Bumper]

Good morning Roy
I visited again the 305th diary for May.

Quote: 'As the string of unbroken 'loss-less' missions mounted for the 365th Squadron, there was much knocking on wood and crossing of fingers around the base. When the score stood at 56, the STARS 'N' STRIPES told the story in some detail and called an ETO record. The superstitious may find an argument in the fact that three days after the article appeared, which happened to be the thirteenth day of the month as well, two planes of the 365th were lost on the Stettin raid.The final score, then, was 58 missions without the loss of a plane'. Un-quote.

My comment is - this seems at odds with known facts for May operations, and rightly as said by you Roy.

May 11th - loss number 102, Ship 42-31402 365th Sqn. Crew of Lt. Alex Thomaides. Mission to Saarbrucken, Ship known by fuselage codings XK-R 'Robert'. 7 KIA, 3 POW, crashed near Town of Charville, France. On master list we dont have a noseart name recorded. Aircraft assigned new to group 22nd December 1943, was one of the early batches of the new 'G' model Fortresses, built at Boeing plant.

May 13th - losses numbers 104 and 105 respectively. These were both 365th Sqn ships; 42-37944 crew of Lt. Bernard Davey. Known on Sqn by noseart name 'DUFFY'S TAVERN' fuselage codings XK-T 'Tommy'. Second ship, 42-37778 crew of Lt. Walter M. Schultz. This ship was known by noseart name 'BETTY CUB', carrying fuselage codes XK-E 'Easy'. Both damaged during Stettin mission and elected by Pilots to head for neutral Sweden, unable to make return flight home to Chelveston.

I'm not sure at all how the 305th calculated the final string of no losses to 58 missions, before the losses of May 1944. Clearly the Squadron did loose a ship on the Saarbrucken raid.

The article was written up BEFORE the losses of 11th and 13th. At that time its alleged it stood at 56. Two further missions without loss??

I'll read through again and see what I can find and make sense of.

Ian

[B17news]

Roy, thank you for your contributions here. They are much appreciated!
-B