Paul Allen at HMS Hood Wreck ...

[Mark_Pilkington]

Doesn't matter if the the president, the USMC, the RAF, the RN or the eagle scouts authorize it. Being legal doesnt' change what it is. I'm sure some egyptian camel herder was happy to approve somebody digging up everything in the valley of the kings at some point as well.

Something was stolen from a grave.

So 'who" can ever authorise something being removed from a wreck containing bodies?

1.Wrecked buildings? - World Trade Centre - September 11?

2. Various wartime aircraft wrecks recovered for either parts or as the basis of restorations, either for static museums or flying warbirds?

3. Various non-war ship wrecks subsequently salvaged but being associated with loss of life? and unrecovered crew?



Does it then only matter if the "place" has been deemed a "grave" ?

How does a bit of paper change the religious/spiritual or ethical/moral issues?



and "if" it does? then -

4. What about coronial and cold case investigations that exhume a body from a grave
- ie clearly not grave robbing - its for a reasonable purpose!

but who gives them permission to do that?

(The guvvmnt and the Cemetary who controls the grave site, and perhaps the living immediate family.)


5. So how might someone get permission to remove a part of a wartime ship wreck if formally declared to be a wargrave?

Perhaps to remove an item that will outlive the wreck itself and form a tangible memorial ongoing and accessible by the public and living immediate family or future decendants?

- ie clearly not grave robbing - its for a reasonable purpose?

The guvvmnt and the guvvmnt department/defence/Royal Navy who controls the grave site, and perhaps the living immediate surviving families.


Taking something from the scene of a death is not neccessarily robbing or stealing.

Taking something from a grave (including the body) is not neccessarily robbing or stealing.

6. Taking parts from a fatal wartime aircraft wreck that still has a MIA crew is no different from taking parts from a fatal wartime ship wreck that still has an MIA crew- and a bit of paper somewhere classing it as a grave.

I do think it to be hypocrytical to raise this issue in this thread regarding a ship wreck and bell recovery on the basis of grave robbing!, and for it to go un-noticed and unmentioned in the many threads regarding wreck recoveries and restorations that are discussed here every day.

Recoveries from holes in the ground in the UK, submerged in the US Lakes, from the sea, from the Jungles of PNG or the wastelands of Russia, where did those crew go?

Some are documented as surviving or falling elsewhere in their trek to be rescued, and others may have simply perished in situ or under the wing, or in the hole in the ground.

- calling it a "grave" or "not" has no impact on taking the parts being "right" or "wrong" to do so,

- and having appropriate "permission" and taking the parts for a "reasonable purpose" is not "robbing" or "stealing".

You are obviously entitled to have a different opinion, but unless you can add more reason and logic to your argument or position it is pointless to keep stating it, we are happy to leave you with that view, and are not convinced to change our views and opinions on the basis of what you say.

Hence lets agree to "disagree"

I commend this project for its purpose and objective and wish it all the success in honouring the fallen.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Jollygreenslugg]

Doesn't matter if the the president...snip...blah, blah...chest beating...Something was stolen from a grave.

After all the posturing and keyboard-warrior moves we read in your posts, you're still wrong. No remains have been disturbed, either directly or indirectly, through the removal of the bell from the ocean floor. Your bizarre, logically-flawed rantings about going through every compartment until finding remains aside, the significance and licitness of removing the bell is well-established.

I'm the workshop coordinator of a railway workshop in Australia. We strip, rebuild, overhaul, repair and service diesel locomotives and wagons. Some of these locomotives have been involved in incidents and collisions, resulting in the deaths of people, both inside and outside the locomotives. This does not preclude their repair and further use. Today we removed a traction motor from a loco which had been involved in a fatal incident. Is that 'grave robbing'? No. You make blanket and objective assertions that do not apply.

Your words are a perfect example of just why loudness and bluster doesn't equate accuracy. Who knows; you may be a top bloke, but your words are a load of...rubbish.

Cheers,
Matt

[bombadier29]

Oh give it a freaking rest man. No wonder I don't come here much anymore... anyone else miss Jack Cook?

Are you anybody? No??? Didn't think so. I don't know who Jack Cook is but I'm getting the impression that maybe he had an opinion that somebody didn't like and they treated him like a dog as well. Might be why he's not here anymore. But since you brought it up, maybe you should consider staying away more.

I bet you're some cranky old fart who calls the cops everytime some kid cuts across your lawn. Obviously you're also one of those people that doesn't play well with others.

Yes I am a cranky old fart. But that has no bearing on anything here. I play very well with others. I'd like to point out that I'm not the one getting mad and throwing a fit about every view I don't share. I'm simply stating my own views and watching with amazement while others act like children when they don't agree.

I do think it to be hypocrytical to raise this issue in this thread regarding a ship wreck and bell recovery on the basis of grave robbing!, and for it to go un-noticed and unmentioned in the many threads regarding wreck recoveries and restorations that are discussed here every day.

You are obviously entitled to have a different opinion, but unless you can add more reason and logic to your argument or position it is pointless to keep stating it, we are happy to leave you with that view, and are not convinced to change our views and opinions on the basis of what you say.

I agree, that would be hypocritical to praise the rebuilding of a fatal wreck and condem the robbing of a grave. Thats why I don't do it. Either would be grave robbing. I even stated earlier that I would have a problem with that.

I appreciate that you are willing to agree to disagree and that is fine. Just because you don't share my view doesn't make it pointless. I don't need to provide any of you with any more "logic and reason" than to say that my opinion is that the Hood is a grave to 1300 men and I believe disturbing it is the height of unacceptable. I truly don't understand why people think you have to try and change everyones opinion to suit your own view. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm simply stating what I think and believe. Your choice to agree or not is just that. Your choice. There's no reason for people to be such jackasses when they disagree (not talking about you, you've been very reasonable).

Doesn't matter if the the president...snip...blah, blah...chest beating...Something was stolen from a grave.

After all the posturing and keyboard-warrior moves we read in your posts...

Do you mean sort of like the way you altered my post? You look older than 12 in your picture. But my eyes aren't what they used to be.

No remains have been disturbed, either directly or indirectly, through the removal of the bell from the ocean floor. Your bizarre, logically-flawed rantings about going through every compartment until finding remains aside, the significance and licitness of removing the bell is well-established.

If you think anything I have posted is a rant then you really need to get out of your parent's basement more often. You do not know if remains were disturbed or not and neither do I. I'm going by my opinion and so are you. I never said anything about going digging through the boat until remains were found. It is quite simple, you and I both know that 1300 people died on that ship. You and I both know the bodies were never recoverd. Therefore, you and I both would consider (resonably) that boat to be the tomb of those men. I don't know how you could possibly think it was anything but a tomb, at least at the time of the sinking. Assume now that it is a regular grave yard on land and somebody removes the tombstones. Regardless of who said it was ok, that is grave robbing.

I'm the workshop coordinator of a railway workshop in Australia. We strip, rebuild, overhaul, repair and service diesel locomotives and wagons. Some of these locomotives have been involved in incidents and collisions, resulting in the deaths of people, both inside and outside the locomotives. This does not preclude their repair and further use. Today we removed a traction motor from a loco which had been involved in a fatal incident. Is that 'grave robbing'? No. You make blanket and objective assertions that do not apply.

Much like some of the ships at Pearl Harbor, if the Hood had been raised again to fight another day, I might have a different opinion. But it wasn't. It has been left down there all these years and not disturbed. Until now.

Your words are a perfect example of just why loudness and bluster doesn't equate accuracy. Who knows; you may be a top bloke, but your words are a load of...rubbish.

Loudness and bluster is often the only way you can get people to stop and think about your own viewpoint. This is supposed to be a place for discussion. My view point, your viewpoint whatever. If people would just listen and think once in a while instead of just jumping in to say "your wrong" then maybe some people would change their views.

It boils down to something like a religious discussion. If somebody believes in the bible then you are going to have a very hard time convincing them that their belief is misplaced. Especially if you are snotty about it. If you are rational and willing to accept that people sometimes "just believe" then sometimes you can slowly change their belief with conversation. Just being an asshat isn't going to get you anywhere. Its sure not going to change my mind.

[JDK]

Regardless of who said it was ok, that is grave robbing.

As a matter of legal fact, it is not. It is that simple.

[WIXMOD-Charlie]

This thread is going nowhere. Thread locked. Member Bombadier29 has receiver a 1 month ban due to repeated personal attacks.