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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:36 am 
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It will be debated over and over again as to which time-frame to restore the Swoose/Ole' Betsy to, but I think part of the consideration should focus on where she will best fit into the collection display. Let me explain:

First, the WWII section is filled to the brim right now as it is. There is really little room left for many larger airframes.

Secondly, there are several WWII era aircraft left to get placed on the museum floor; ie the B-23, C-39, C-60, A-25, He-111, Ju-52 and RB-37 (if it gets moved from Plueblo, CO....my hope and desire)

My suggestion would be to expand the WWI gallery section towards the memorial garden area. By doing so, you can create the room needed to add the B-17D (in it's September, 1941 bomber configuration...to help explain the build up to the perceived Japanese military), along with beautifully restored C-39, the B-23, the He-111 (to better tell the story of the Battle of Britain, along with the current Hurricane) and the Ju-52 (possibly suspended from above to save room) Also, move the P-35 and P-36 displays back over to that section.

This would free up some room, albeit little room, to place the C-60 and RB-37, along with the A-25 (which already has a spot allocated) in the WWII Gallery.

I guess my point is: IMHO, if the Swoose is restored as the later war "transport," then it belong in that chronological order, placing it nearer the "Belle,""Bitch" and company. Just not enough room for that. Besides, she better represents the late 30's technology and should therefore be displayed much closer to that era....helping to keep with the new chronologically designed layout of the museum.

I'm sure there are many who will strongly disagree, but the "Swoose" should definitly be restored back to 1941 Bomber configuration. I hope and pray that is the ultimate decision


That pretty much sums up my opinion as well. Once the new Presidential/Flight Test gallery is finished, the "original" museum buildings should be expanded. In addition to adding onto the "Early Years" gallery, I could see expanding the WWII section as well. As you mention, there are still a fair number of good-sized aircraft to fit in there. And you never know, they might someday even recover that B-32 from the moon... 8)

Back to the Swoose, some pics show her with a "G" one-piece plexiglas nose..but I seem to remember seeing a pic of her in storage at Garber sporting the earlier-style framed nose. Any idea which nose came with her to Dayton?

SN


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:52 am 
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Steve Nelson wrote:
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Back to the Swoose, some pics show her with a "G" one-piece plexiglas nose..but I seem to remember seeing a pic of her in storage at Garber sporting the earlier-style framed nose. Any idea which nose came with her to Dayton?

SN


I saw a magazine article (or book?) a few years ago and it showed that the Smithsonian had obtained an early model framed nose piece for the Swoose to replace the G-model glass. In-fact they had fitted it to the aircraft while in storage...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:19 am 
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SaxMan wrote:
Great model, but shouldn't the rudder markings be "19B", not "11B" as the Swoose was part of the 19th BG?


She was marked 21/11B in natural metal. 3097 was one of the original ships to come to Clark from Hickam in September '41. After she was painted she retained the plane in group number 21. The color sure wasn't
typical OD.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:20 am 
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So let me ask this. Was she at one point ever painted with the Swoose art work while retaining it's D model guns.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:29 am 
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mustangdriver wrote:
So let me ask this. Was she at one point ever painted with the Swoose art work while retaining it's D model guns.


There's a picture of Lyndon Johnson standind in front of her at Port Moresby where it appears to show a waist gun in the stowed position on the right side.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:00 am 
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Was it ever O.D. over gray, with the tub installed and named Swoose? If so, I think that may be a real option for display.

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mustangdriver wrote:
Was it ever O.D. over gray, with the tub installed and named Swoose? If so, I think that may be a real option for display.


Apparently it was a crude attempt at O.D. done at Del Monte. Some pictures appear to show a two tone upper finish. As far as the undersides go, they seem to be partly black and other parts grey, but I believe that was done later. I've seen pictures of other B-17s painted at Del Monte that had the undersides unpainted and barely enough paint to cover the upper surfaces. The problem with restoring it with a painted finish is no one is really sure what the color(s) were.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:47 am 
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Some backgroud info out there on the internet:

http://www.463rd.org

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The 463rd was known as the "The Swoose Group" because its Group Commander, Col. Frank Kurtz, had named his aircraft "The Swoose". He carried that name forward from a B-17D that he flew in the Pacific prior to being named Group Commander of the 463rd. The original "Swoose" has quite a story behind her. On April 28, 1941, Boeing delivered this particular B-17D (Army Air Corps serial number 40-3097) to the 19th Bombardment Group at March Field, California. On May 31, the group flew 21 Flying Fortresses to Hamilton Field near San Francisco. That evening, twenty airplanes from this group took off and flew 3,864 kilometers (2,400 miles) to Hickam Field, Hawaii. This was the first time that a mass, coordinated flight of land-based aircraft had flown to Hawaii. The Flying Fortresses departed Hamilton Field at five-minute intervals and landed at Hickam with less than six minutes between any two airplanes. For this flight, every crew member received the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Soon after 40-3097 arrived in Hawaii, Lieutenant Henry Godman joined the bomber's crew as pilot and aircraft commander. On September 5, nine of the B-17Ds took off and continued flying west to reinforce the Philippine Islands, stopping to refuel at Midway Island, Wake Island, Port Moresby (New Guinea), and Batchelor Field, a Royal Australian Air Force base near Darwin, Australia. On September 12, the group landed at Clark Field, about 80.5 km (50 miles) northwest of Manila, ending the longest mass flight of land-based aircraft carried out to that time.

On the night of December 5, a formation of Flying Fortresses that included 40-3097 flew 966 km (600 miles) to a partially completed landing strip at the Del Monte pineapple plantation on the island of Mindanao. Having successfully carried them halfway around the world, the crew had grown attached to this particular Flying Fortress and they named the bomber "Ole Betsy." They applied olive-drab camouflage paint over the original polished, natural-aluminum finish but they did not formalize the moniker with nose art. Months passed before the airplane acquired her permanent nickname "The Swoose" with distinctive half-goose, half-swan artwork.

A few hours after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, "Ole Betsy" and another B-17 made reconnaissance flights around Mindanao--probably the first U. S. bomber mission of the war. In the weeks that followed, Godman flew the airplane on a number of missions from Del Monte to strike at Japanese forces invading the Philippines. On one mission "Ole Betsy" took off to bomb Lingayen Gulf. Soon after taking off, Godman experienced engine trouble and elected to head for an alternate target at Davao Gulf instead of aborting. The airplane arrived over the Gulf in darkness. Using lights and movement in the harbor to aim, the bombardier released his bomb load. The lights scattered and the B-17 turned for home on the last leg of the first U. S. night bombing attack of World War II.

At the end of December, she relocated to a new base at Singosari, Java. During a mission to bomb Borneo's eastern coast on January 11, 1942, three enemy fighter aircraft mounted a 35-minute attack. The crew shot down two of the attackers and the B-17 escaped. The damage was extensive enough to end her career as a bomber. She was flown to Melbourne, Australia, for a complete overhaul and fitted with a new tail scavanged from another Flying Fortress (serial number 40-3091).

Late in February, Captain Weldon Smith became the new pilot of this restored Flying Fortress. He christened the airplane "The Swoose" after a popular American song about a tormented gander that was half swan and half goose. For an airplane pieced together from parts of other aircraft, Smith thought the name fit well. He flew the airplane for a short time, then moved on. On March 17, another pilot flew "The Swoose" back to Melbourne for extensive engine work. Captain Frank Kurtz selected it to ferry Lt. General George Brett, Commander of Allied Air Forces in Australia. "The Swoose" became the general's personal aircraft. It was in better condition than other B-17s at Melbourne and more complete with radios and armament. Brett flew "The Swoose" more than 150 hours per month across Australia and into the combat zone around Port Moresby.

In May 1942, with Kurtz flying, the airplane broke the speed record flying from Sydney, Australia, to Wellington, New Zealand. In New Zealand, the crew removed all armament, lightening the bomber by hundreds of pounds, then broke another speed record during a flight to Honolulu. General Douglas MacArthur relieved Brett of his command in July. On August 4, 1942, Brett left Brisbane and returned home aboard the veteran B-17. Following a brief stop in Honolulu, he arrived at Hamilton Field, California, after flying for 36 hours and 10 minutes. Frank Kurtz had not just set another speed record, he brought home the first American combat bomber to return from the front. On November 9, Kurtz flew Brett in "The Swoose" to his new assignment at Albrook Field, Panama Canal Zone.
Kurtz was so taken with the name, that he and his wife named their daughter Swoosie. Born September 6, 1944, Swoosie Kurtz became a stage, screen, and television actress. In July 1943, Frank Kurtz took command of the 463rd Bomb Group. The Army Air Corps also gave him a brand-new B-17G that he promptly named "The Swoose."

The B-17 that carried Brett across the Pacific remained as his personal aircraft but Capt. Jack Crane became the new pilot. Crane and "The Swoose" carried Brett to many countries in South America and the Caribbean until late in 1945 when he returned to the United States aboard his adopted executive bomber on October 15. After several short trips around the country, the Army decommissioned the airplane at Kingman, Arizona, and General Brett retired.

When Frank Kurtz heard plans to scrap the aircraft, he arranged for the City of Los Angeles to buy the old bomber for $350. The city planned to create a war memorial featuring the B-17. Mechanics hastily repainted the Flying Fortress in olive drab and black and returned it to flying condition. On April 6, 1946, Kurtz flew the airplane to Mines Field, the Los Angeles municipal airport. Among his passengers were the mayor of Los Angeles and Mrs. Kurtz. Following acceptance ceremonies, airport personnel stored the B-17 inside a hangar.

But the city's plan for the war memorial fell through and hangar space became scarce and expensive. A new home was needed and once again, Frank Kurtz came to the rescue. He approached the Smithsonian and curator Paul Garber agreed to accept the bomber. In May 1948, Kurtz flew "The Swoose" to the old Douglas C-54 assembly plant at Park Ridge, Illinois. The building served the Smithsonian as temporary storage for a large number of museum aircraft. In June 1950, the Korean War began and the U. S. Air Force claimed the Park Ridge facility for military use. Smithsonian officials abandoned the hangar and on January 18, 1952, an Air Force crew flew "The Swoose" to Pyote, Texas. It was stored there, outdoors, wingtip to wingtip with the famous Boeing B-29 "Enola Gay."

Almost two years later, the Air Force agreed to move the bomber to Andrews AFB, Maryland, and store it there with other Smithsonian aircraft. On December 3, 1953, The Swoose began its last flight. This trip was not without incident and during the afternoon of the 5th, two engines quit. At dusk, a third engine failed just before touchdown at Andrews. For the next six years this historic aircraft was stored outdoors at the base and vandals almost picked the bomber clean. Finally, in April 1961, to save what remained of the airplane from total destruction, the Smithsonian disassembled and trucked the 60-year-old veteran to the National Air and Space Museum's Paul E. Garber Preservation, Restoration, and Storage Facility at Silver Hill, Maryland.




From my understanding. The aircraft wasn't called "The Swoose" until after it was salvaged. From that point on it was a transport. All told her Combat career seem to have been just over a month long. Would be curious to see a listing of missions, stats and credits during that time.

From GHBrett (grandson of Lt. General Brett) on flickr.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orpost/tags/swoose/

If you'll notice the swoose start out her transport days in OD and then later during service being stripped. In one of the stripped pictures you can see a ruff border around the swoose artwork and in other they put a more finished border on it.

here she is on Sept. 9th 1941. the date would suggest taken while inroute to Clark feild PI.
Image

this picture seems to be when it was to be a Memorial at LA after the war seeing as it combines OD with the Swoose Bare metal flag artwork that you can clearly see in the Flickr.com link

Image

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/73/159266000_3e3b7d1f90_s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/orpost/sets/1151412/&h=75&w=75&sz=4&hl=en&start=59&um=1&tbnid=fabzClQdSHWTxM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=71&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthe.swoose%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:35 am 
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For additional info about the NMUSAF's acquistion of the Swoose check www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123106540

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:54 am 
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APG85 wrote:
Steve Nelson wrote:
Quote:
Back to the Swoose, some pics show her with a "G" one-piece plexiglas nose..but I seem to remember seeing a pic of her in storage at Garber sporting the earlier-style framed nose. Any idea which nose came with her to Dayton?

SN


I saw a magazine article (or book?) a few years ago and it showed that the Smithsonian had obtained an early model framed nose piece for the Swoose to replace the G-model glass. In-fact they had fitted it to the aircraft while in storage...


The framed nose came from B-17F 42-3374 used as a movie prop with MGM studios until rescued by Ed Moloney (The Air Museum, later Planes of Fame). When the USAFM got the airplane in a trade, the framed nose went to the NASM for the B-17D and, reportedly, the nose from the B-17D was mounted on the B-17F.

How and why the framed nose got mounted on the B-17F with MGM has been lost to history but, obviously, it was done for some movie.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:14 pm 
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So it wasn't the Swoose while in combat? It was Ol Betsty? That is what I would vote for then. It may have only been 1 month, but nevertheless, combat is combat. So paint her up in OD or the original bare metal (if possible) with the early insignias.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:45 pm 
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complete history of the Swoose here
http://www.amazon.com/Swoose-Odyssey-He ... 414&sr=8-1


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:12 pm 
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mustangdriver wrote:
I will be sad to see SSB leave, but it will be great to have a combat vet B-17 in our NASM. The B-17 is one of the most important aircraft in U.S. history. In my opinion there was always a great void in the Udvar Hazy without the B-17 there.


I'm coming in a bit late to this discussion, but I live in NoVA and NASM is my "local" museum. I'm absolutely thrilled that there was a form of trade to bring Swoose to NMUSAF and bring SSB to NASM.

I'm also a member of one of the DC area's IPMS Chapters, and every year we do a model display at Udvar Hazy's "Become a Pilot Day". For the past two years, WWII vets have come up to me at the display and pointed out (lamented, actually) that the only B-17 in the museum is the one sitting on our display table.

The simple fact of the matter is that we're losing WWII vets at what? A rate of about 1000 per day? And those still living who go to aviation museums to see aircraft that they flew, or which flew over them, deserve (to the extent possible) to see those aircraft.

Having three B-17s consolidated and displayed in a single museum may be really neat to some of us enthusiasts - but by doing so when there are holes in other prominant museums (including the aviation museum with the highest annual attendence in the world) robs some of the vets of what might be their first chance (and last) chance since the War to see an example of "their" aircraft up close and personal.

Fact is that DC is a much more prominant tourist destination (especially for WWII vets these days, given the numbers I've seen at Udvar-Hazy, NASM Mall and at the WWII and FDR Memorials) than Dayton, so having a B-17 at NASM (even if out at Dulles with it's lower attendence than the Mall) allows exposure of the aircraft and its type to a greater audience, both civillian and veteran. As much as people (myself included) are partisans for their preferred museum, at the end of the day the best thing to do is that which is in the interest of the museum-going public.

As an aside, a couple things I saw earlier in this thread that I wanted to comment on. Regarding NASM's restoration of the Seiran and some of the other Axis aircraft ahead of US aircraft, I'd point out that the restoration of the Seiran was paid for by the Tamiya model company and the Do-335 was paid for and done by Dornier. NASM isn't completely reliant upon Congressional appropriations (case in point being the naming of the Dulles Center Annex after the guy who ponied up $65 million to get it done), so it's hard to justify turning down the generosity of a benefactor willing to pay for a complete restoration of a particular aircraft.

Regarding Flak Bait, two points. First, NASM has done some recent work to shield her from prying hands. There's now a big sheet of plexiglas covering the part of her fuselage that was most easily accessable, and being able to put hands on the aircraft is now pretty difficult (still possible, of course). Second, I've heard from several sources now that Flak Bait is scheduled to be the first aircraft to be processed through the Phase II preservation/restoration center ... once it gets built (and for which I believe NASM is still accepting donations - see my comment two paras up).


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:16 pm 
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Pat Carry wrote:
For additional info about the NMUSAF's acquistion of the Swoose check www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123106540


""The early years of World War II were a time of both tragedy and heroism," said museum director Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Charles D. Metcalf. "With The Swoose, the only surviving U.S. aircraft from the beginning of the war in the Pacific on Dec. 7, 1941, the Air Force's national museum will receive a B-17 that is a veteran of the very first day of the war in the Philippines while assigned to the 19th Bomb Group in the Philippine Islands. This is a great story in our history.""

(emphasis mine).

Isn't there a flying Grumman Duck that was on Ford Island during the Japanese attack?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:37 pm 
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Matt Gunsch wrote:
complete history of the Swoose here
http://www.amazon.com/Swoose-Odyssey-He ... 414&sr=8-1


It's a good read.

Interesting to see that she was at Clark in NMF, then camo, still had the gun tub when she came back to the states, was stripped to NMF again then repainted in OD after the war when she was 'rescued' from Kingman.


With that being in mind, I'd take her back to her Clark Field look with the NMF, striped rudder, red center to the star etc.

Flew her first combat mission December 8th and her last January 10th when she was out of commision from battle damage.

Take her back to December 8th when she went to war, still unpainted it appears too.


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