Warbird Information Exchange

Those are great pics, but a BT-9 and a "Yale" are not the same airplane. A BT-9 is a variant in the NA-16 line of airplanes, but the "Yale" is a NA-64.
The BT-9 has a fabric covered fuselage and the Yale is all metal. You can see pics of a "NA-64 Yale" on my website www.wildrelics.com.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

I stand redfaced....I just cut and pasted it without even thinking about it, but yup your right.

Cool pics anyway. I wish I had a BT-9. I don't know if there are any flying, but they are rare. I wonder if they fly any better than the Yale, which is a real hand full compared to the T6.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

Eric/Paul--

Nope, there are no extant BT-9s. A Yale is displayed at Dayton in AAF blue and yellow, and at one time was signposted as a "BT-9C" (though the airframe is much nearer a BT-14). The closest thing to a BT-9 anywhere today is the RSwAF Museum's superb reproduction of an ASJA Sk14--the Swedish licence-built BT-9 variant--which is a complex composite of componentry from a Yale (engine, centre section/main gear) and a CAC Wirraway (fuselage, tail, outer wings). There are pix of it on WIX somewhere, I don't doubt...(BTW I've wondered what ever became of the surplus components from that project. Wirraway GR1340/centre section, Yale fuse/tail/outer wings...you could assemble an ersatz NA44ish thingy from that stuff and it would probably hum right along...)

S.

Excellent photos, Paul. Thanks for posting them. I am attaching some rough initial drafts of a BT-14 (NA-58 ) and Yale (NA-64), which I started years ago. They have since been improved and completed, but these copies will serve to show just how different these aircraft are.

Doug






Having looked at the preview of the sideviews, I see that fabric lines on the major side panel of the Yale have leaked through from a previous drawing. These should not be there - both of these aircraft were metal.

There is also a surviving NA-44 derivative of the NA-16 in Brazil as seen on a recent post here in WIX, as well as the @20 Wirraway's still surviving in Australia which are all licence built NA-16's based on the NA-33.
(1 Wirraway exists in the US in Kermit Weeks collection)

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14275&highlight=

The Swedish project may have used both the steel tube fuselage and tail from the Wirraway and the wing centre-section and wing outer panels from the Yale as I believe the Wirraway centre-section and wings were later acquired by Peter Sledge and returned to Australia for his rebuild project of Wirraway A20-81 which now flys as "A20-176" - VH-WWY in Queensland.

Interestingly according to the earlier WIX thread there was apparantly a second NA-44 in Brazil that dis-appeared after a visit from the Swedish project? suggesting it may have formed a role in the Swedish rebuild?

Which would suggest even more parts should be surplus? or a further NA-16 project exists in Brazil somewhere?



The information regarding the restored SK-14 makes no reference to a NA-44 or parts from Brazil so I assume it is still there somewhere.

http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Skol/413Sk14-3.htm




Regards

Mark Pilkington

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20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

The Sk 14 reproduction was based on some scrounged original parts, an RCAF Yale and an Aussie Wirra. There were no other parts involved, other than anything which required fabrication.

As for the NA-44 (the Brazilian contract was designated NA-72), 30 of these aircraft were delivered by Brazilian pilots on 5 lo-o-ong ferry flights beginning Sept. 15, 1940 and ending in May of the following year. Incredibly, there was only one casualty - number 12 was written off in an accident at Tuxpan in December.

Duties for the NA-72s ranged from third level pilot and gunnery training at the Escola de Aviação Militar at Campo dos Afonsos to coastal patrols. At war’s end, the 20 surviving NA-72s were returned to their pilot training duties at the Escola de Aeronáutica, being redesignated as AT-6s and given serials in the 1000 series, which indicated advanced trainers.
The original contract included a licence to build the NA-72 at the Fábrica de Lagoa Santa, but deliveries of 125 AT-6s under Lend-Lease negated the need for such an endeavour.
The last of the active trainers was struck off charge in 1958, but NA-72 ‘27’ (72-4763), which had been converted to an instructional airframe April 4th, 1952, remained on the inventory of the Escola de Especialistas da Aeronáutica until December 20, 1967. Which begs the question...where is she now?

Mark/Doug--

There are crossed wires here I think...the two NA-16 variants I remember from an earlier thread were two NA-42s in Honduras, rather than the Wasp-engined NA-44 variants in Brazil. Course there could have been two threads. The NA-42s were fixed-gear trainers; the 44s and their derivatives were light attack aircraft. One of the NA-42s was restored for museum display in Honduras; a second, stripped, example was there too but has apparently disappeared. (There was an NA-44 in Canada during wartime as well, the Cyclone-engined demonstrator, used as a high performance "hack" from RCAF Trenton. It survived the war only to vanish without trace around 1947.)

S.

Geez, 25 years later and you're still causing me problems, Tournay! Okay, let's look at the Honduran aircraft. We'll start with the NA-20, which was a basic BT-9, built as a demonstrator for China. The Chinese declined to place an order and the aircraft was re-engined with an R-1340 and sold to Honduras. Honduras liked it so much, they ordered two more (NA-42s) which were similar except for two nose guns.

The attached photos are from old magazine clippings, but are NAA factory shots. The first is the NA-20 demonstrator after installation of the Wasp and the second is one of the NA-42s in a spectacular paint scheme. You wouldn't believe how many 'experts' have declared this a Japanese aircraft because of the incomplete insignia on the rear fuselage.

Doug

Steve/Doug,

My mistake yes the surviving NA-44 is in Honduras not Brazil, with a second one?? apparantly existing into the 1990's but apparantly now dis-appeared?

Sorry for the confusion

The Wirraway is more like the USAAC's "BC-1" rather than the BT-9 as both had the 1340 and retractable undercarriage, (the RAF Havard mark I and SNJ-1 were all part of this same family.)

The T-6, and later SNJ and Harvard marks all grew out of the NA64/ BT-14/SNJ-2 redevelopments of the basic NA-16 design introducing the metal monocoque rear fuselage, new wing centre-section and wing outer panels and tail empenage.




http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=133278&highlight=#133278




regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

"My mistake yes the surviving NA-44 is in Honduras not Brazil..."

No! There were never, ever any NA-44s in service in Honduras! I'm sorry Mark, I'm not on your case personally. I have simply been waging a war for almost 50 years to teach people about this magnificent but complex family of aircraft, but people persist in calling a BT-9 or BT-14 a Yale, (including the USAFM!) and the NA-44 comes a close second for very loose number dropping.

First of all, there was only ever one NA-44. It served in the RCAF after its demonstration tour. All other NA-44 initiated designs had their own designator: Venezuela NA-71, Brazil NA-72, Chile NA-74, Peru NA-50 (single seat fighter). Thailand/Siam NA-68 (the second single seat fighter) and NA-69, a light attack bomber. The two single seaters and the NA-69 were the only variants to use the NA-44's original power plant, the R-1820.

I am attaching a photo of the one and only NA-44 while stationed at RCAF Station Trenton.

Sorry for the tirade, but these aircraft have been part of my life since I was a twerp living under a constant canopy of 424 Sqn Harvards in the early 1950s. I admit it - I have an obsession. I go to NA-16 Anonymous every day!



Doug

Doug,

I will not dis-agree with you as I am very aware that the "NA-44" and other numbers relate to the Contract Number of a particular purchase rather than a distinct model number, i.e. there is usually a NA16-# relating to each specific model or variation as well as the contract number, in much the same way that we received two NA16's to Australia to support the licence building of the "Wirraway" designated at the NA32 and NA33 they were both NA16's of differing "dash numbers".

So I stand corrected, and assume the survivor in Honduras is then correctly described as an "NA-42"? as advised by StevenT, as you yourself identify there were derivatives from the NA-44 etc.

Having owned a Wirraway project and researched the NAA drawings/parts/designs for parts commonality etc I too am very interested and well aware of the history of the NA-16 design, and am sorry my short hand "chat" approach here in this forum may be perpetuating inaccuracies, as it was not intended, however nor were my comments intended to be an authoritive technical or archival reference, my main interest above was to promote knowledge of the surviving NA-16s.

There are a number of excellent references on the NAA model and Contract numbers, and I will now re-read them as penance myself - smiles

regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Hi Doug and Mark,

Given that I know both of you, I can advise to you both that the other is most definitely genuine, enthusiastic and interested in the NA-16 family. Doug certainly does have a slight obsession with researching the species!

Hope you are both well and Mark I'll be calling you in the near future about catching up before I finish this project in Melbourne.

Cheers,
Matt

LOL! Matt, after I read Mark's message this morning, I was thinking I should ask if he knew you. Small world!

Mark, I apologize if it sounded a bit like I was using you for target practice, but I have a passion for these aircraft and I have spent a lot of years studying them and 'spreading the word'. I hope to continue to do so on the forum as similar situations crop up.

As for penance, a pint of bitter should suffice!

Doug