ww2 gauges sold as radium free via high profile mdse list??

[tom d. friedman]

yes, i know this should be on the parts thread, but i thought this was a noteworthy topic that pertains to all participants of wix.. a very high profile international catalog seller of aviation memorabilia who sells books, models, aviation art & repro / original ww2 aviation collectables is selling some u.s. ww 2 vintage aviation instruments deemed as radium free. how is this so?? who's removing the radium?? & who is deeming it as safe?? can the seller guarantee no radioactive residue?? i know the epa has dogged countless collectors / warbird restorers over the radium issue, confiscated entire collections & inventories while run of the mill sellers on ebay & barnstormers sell unscathed. that is another issue. i just want to know how they sell ww 2 instruments in confidence that they are radium free?? to my knowledge aviation instruments were not radium free until at least the korean war era or just after. of course, this is not including ww 2 era planes that served in korea.

[astixjr]

Radium Shmadium, the stuff is harmless. I sprinkle it on my toast every morning. Taco Bell, now that stuff will kill you and it's useless on aircraft instrument dials.

[bdk]

Finally! A voice of reason....

[Dan K]

With mine I just remove the bezel and glass and let the neighbor's cat lick the radium off.

I can ditto Albert's observations on Taco Bell though.

[Eric Friedebach]

Poor kitty, Dan! But I bet he’ll make a cool Halloween prop.

Anyway, from the Aviation Instrument Association:

JULY 2007 - STATUS OF NCR RADIUM REGULATIONS

There has been some recent progress in obtaining flexibility from the NRC. At this time we have not seen any revisions in print but we are encouraged that the NRC is taking our aviation instrument industry needs into account. Listed below is our understanding of the regulations that will pertain to our contact with Radium-containing instruments. The final version of the rules should be released by the end of this summer. We should acknowledge that antique aircraft restorers, scientific consultants, the AEA, the EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association) and the Small Business Administration (SBA) have been very helpful to us in these efforts with the NRC.

Each AIA company will be allowed, in the process of servicing their customers, to have up to 100 radium-containing “parts/units” in their physical possession at one time. A general license is granted for that purpose, without any fee or paperwork requirement.

Every AIA company will be allowed to repair the “internal workings” of Radium-containing instruments.

Every AIA company will be allowed to replace Radium-containing dials, pointers, etc, and to store the removed components in a safe and secure manner for later cleaning and/or disposal by a specifically licensed facility.

The specific license, with the accompanying licensing fees and paperwork, will still be required to clean, refinish, and rescreen the Radium-containing instrument components.

In addition, only the largest radium dial re-processing facilities will be subject to the $12,000+ first year licensing fees. Smaller re-processing facilities would be subject to a smaller and graduated fee structure, the details of which have not yet been released.

Thus, it would be our hope and expectation that a few of our AIA shops could/would set themselves up to legally and economically centralize the dial re-finishing from our AIA companies.

These accommodations will address our instrument repair shop needs and logistics while still accomplishing the essential NRC objectives of controlling biologically harmful radioisotopes.

One final note of clarification is that the NRC regulations do not replace the OSHA regulations in regard to work-place exposure to ionizing radiation. The OSHA regulations in that regard will remain in full effect, assuring the well being of our respective employees. It is the responsibility of each AIA company to have the information, equipment and procedures in place to know which instruments have Radium dials and to handle them properly. It is our responsibility to do so.

[HELLDIVERS]

Hi.

There are a few companys that will take your old instruments remove the radium dials photograph them, strip the old face and silk screen a new dial made from the negative of the original. Beware some companys will seize and destroy them and then send you a bill for the desposal. To save a lot of greif call ahead and check thier policy, All a/c at the NMUSAF have been deradiated do to stringent E.P.A. regulations and are all checked by E.P.A. personel at any given time. They can't even use the old cat eye toggle switches. It amaizes me that so many pilots that sat for thousands of hours in front of a whole panel of radium instruments none of them have any related illness from it.

Thanks Mike

[Bill Greenwood]

The story I have been told, is that radium dials will not cause any harm in normal use. In WWII the ladies painting on the dials sometimes licked the paintbrush ends, thus getting direct exposure and some health problems. Sounds reasonable, but I can't vouch for it.

[Dan K]

Mike, is the NMUSAF handling the instruments for your Helldiver project, or are you dealing directly with someone to recondition them?

[HELLDIVERS]

Hi,

All of the instruments are N.O.S. when the museum recieves the A/C part of the process is they send them all out so they have a record of it ,it's not cheap. They also purge all oil and fuel systems, and foam fill the tires.

Thanks Mike

[Kudzu]

I have recently studied the info available online about radium instruments ( due to concerns about my collection as well as the museum I help at). The real health problems seem to be from ingesting/inhaling the radium as mentioned above. A number of the instrument painters pre WWII died horribly due to various cancers (bone etc) because the companies TRAINED them to keep wetting the brushes in their mouths (to make a finer brush point). They were told the paint was completely harmless and allowed to paint their teeth and fingernails with it (this resulted in MEGA doses of radium into their body). Meanwhile the company scientists treated it like the biohazard it is in THEIR labs. I think the management considered workers expendable assets back then.
From my reading and actual tests, most old instruments in circulation do NOT have radium paint. The "leave it in the dark and check for glow" test is not a really accurate way to make sure however. The radium will be "hot" for a long time but the other ingredients used in the paints to make it cheaper/brighter have oxidized over time and actually block the visible glow on some faces. The only way to be sure if an instrument/switch/panel is radium painted is to test it with a radiac/Geiger counter.
My feeling after reading the available data is that the instruments do not pose a real health risk as long as the glass is in place and the paint is not turning into crumbs/dust to be inhaled (the glass blocks most of the Alfa radiation). For instruments that are broken or in bad shape, I would recommend placing them in a zip lock freezer bag and storing in a metal container just for peace of mind until they can be repaired/disposed of. I will say that if someone decided to do a "hey ya'll, watch this", and take the faces from a lot gauges and say make a tanning bed to sleep in then I hope they have a good insurance policy!

All of the above is just my opinion and I'm not liable if I'm wrong!

Brian

[JDK]

Hi folks,
Couple of points.

There's no such thing as 'alfa' radiation unless a cornfield explodes - search for 'alpha' radiation (beta and gamma are the others IIRC my school Physics). No point scoring on spelling, again, just help finding what you look for.

The 'licked paintbrushes' story goes back to the Victorian era, phosphorous matches and 'Phossy Jaw'. That's not to say the more modern versions of the story aren't true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phossy_jaw

Mike Heldivers' post is great. However the assertion: "It amaizes me that so many pilots that sat for thousands of hours in front of a whole panel of radium instruments none of them have any related illness from it." is obviously unsupportable; even without any research we know that a number of aircrew have died of anything you care to name; it's agreed it seems like overkill protection today, but there aren't meaningful statistics to support or deny an increased mortality rate from this cause.

HTH.

[Bruce]

If you're worried, buy a counter, and check each instrument.

I did, and was pleasantly surprised to find that most of the instruments that I thought were hot, werent, although putting two identical instruments side by side, I was surprised to see a high reading on one, and nothing on the other.

The main danger is from instruments with broken glass, especially those which have corroded badly and the paint has flaked off.

Dont keep them in your den, and be aware of the potential risks, and you should be fine.


Bruce

[Bill Greenwood]

Bruce, I have a Spit attitude indecator as part of a display on a shelf in my den, and a few spares sitting around. Is this risky? Where do you buy the counter and what price? Thanks

[Bruce]

Bill,

You can buy counters on Ebay for less than a hundred dollars.

If your instruments are wartime dated, there is a risk. If they are postwar, there is less of a risk, but it depends on the instrument. On balance, I would move them to your garage or other store.

If it is one instrument in isolation, its not too danagerous, but it doesnt hurt to be sure. What's in your aeroplane? Is it WW2 stuff, or is it postwar? I know some of the Irish 2 seaters had something of a mix.

If you are concerned, then speak to an instrument shop, and I'm sure they can advise you better than I can.


Bruce

[Kudzu]

Hi James,
It was late when I did my previous post, but that's what I get for depending on spell check to proof read! (alpha not alfa -- oops)

Here are two good sites which discuss the radium issue in more depth.

http://www.uglx.org/radwatch

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/radi ... ntinfo.htm

Hi Bill,
Here is the cool surplus place I bought my Geiger counter ( a PDR-27 ) which has the proper ranges to test instruments ( I think some don't ).

http://murphyjunk.bizland.com/

After testing my instrument collection, I relocated a couple that were on my bookshelf to my storage building ( just to make sure ).

Cheers,
Brian