"Antique" aircraft "pulled over" by F-16

[tulsaboy]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/08/forced ... index.html

oops.

Were these really EAA aircraft, or were they just headed to an EAA show?

kevin

Last edited by tulsaboy on Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mustangdriver]

That TFR was on record forever. The P-40 expansion should not have been a surprise. The way it sounds these guys were going to an EAA fly-in. It's not the fact that they were flying in that area that got them in trouble, it's that they didn't alk to someone prior to lifting.

[Nathan]

Wow, this really sucks. The pilots could receive penilties? ?


Haven't we already seen enough bad things happen this year?

[CH2Tdriver]

Here is the museum and event in question;

http://www.hagerstownaviationmuseum.org/

I'm trying to figure it out, I'm not sure if they're refering to the expanded P-40 or a Prez TFR which shuts down airspace for 30 NM. The article says Bush was speaking 26 miles away so it makes sense that it wasn't P-40. It appears that the aircraft took off to do some flat passed for the crowds, and they triggered the alert because of the Prez TFR and not because they violated P-40.

I've seen it happen when the prez is in NYC, it basically shuts down everything west of ISP for those of us on Long Island. If his speech or meeting runs longer, the TFR goes past the expiry time and a call to FSS is needed to get that update. If you go by your original briefing you can get into trouble. Although with the recent FSS troubles and delays, I'm not sure thats a guarantee either.

Pete

[mustangdriver]

P-40 changes sizes when the pres is there, and when he is not. It was expanded this weekend. There was also another TFR in the same area for his movement to an event near Emittsburg?, I think it was something like that. I have a helicopter based at HGR, so I was dealing with it all weekend.

[Bill Greenwood]

It is best practice to check with flight service for any TFRs in the area the morning of a flight, and if not, at least the night before. There are last minute changes, **************************************************************** Edited ***************************************************

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

[CH2Tdriver]

Your correct about P-40 and here is the expansion;
http://www.aopa.org/images/whatsnew/new ... 2-1730.jpg

As you stated there was another TFR for the Emittsburg visit, that one is what I believe triggered the alert. He was 26 mi away and a prez TFR shuts down a/s for 30 miles for everything VFR. If they extended the visit, the TFR gets extended and it is up to the pilot to get an update. (I'm giving those pilots the benefit of the doubt here, that they were well aware of the P-40 limits.)

Pete

[astixjr]

That does it. I'm installing an IFF, chaff dispensers, and flares on my Stearman. Anyone know where I can get some of that radar absorbing black paint?

Any word on the types of "antiques" involved or the names of the pilots?

[RyanShort1]

I dunno on this one. The pilots clearly should have checked before flying, but that's a little over the top. I hope the pilots are treated with compassion rather than made examples of.

Ryan

[RyanShort1]

Just to throw the question out - what do the other pilots here think of the whole TFR thing - is it effective, "feel good", or not good enough. I personally suspect that it does more to harm "good" or harmless folks than it would actually do to stop a determined terrorist. Hope I'm wrong.

Ryan

[mustangdriver]

I have to say that the P-40 TFR is a big deal here. Any pilot that flies in thsi area knows to check to see if that thing is expanded.

[muddyboots]

**** Edited *****

Can you please avoid the whole political insult thing? It's flies like a brick in a hefty bag. You do remember Scott trashcanned a whoel forum he got so mad at us, right?

[airnutz]

**** edited *****
Amen! No bait..no reason for anyone to bite.

[Forgotten Field]

This incident is indicative of the pattern of aviation repression that has occurred since 9/11 and will continue if aviation people don't band together and defend their right to sky access.

Most of you didn't fly in the District of Columbia Air Defense Identification Zone (DC ADIZ) while it was at it's Mickey Mouse dimensions (on the chart the shape of the no fly zone looked like Mickey Mouse's profile). It has since been reduced in size, to a more comfortable single distance from DC VORTAC, but still encompasses the DC area and several airports under what now looks like a permant flight restriction, although it is listed as a NOTAM and TFR. I flew regularly in it until it was reduced in size on August 30th 2007.

I want to state categorically that if the defense measures set up were effective in protecting the skies over Washington DC and close areas, that I would have no problem with them. But the system as set up was trash, and totally ineffective, and there is no way that it could be made to work without orbiting fighters 24 hours a day. I'm not the only one who thought so. During testimony in open hearings about the ADIZ, a USN LTCDR made statements about his actual experience flying in the zone which illustrated this and made suggestions for improvements. He was an experienced Naval Aviator. His comments were so inflammatory to the Feds that the entire testimony was removed from public view (it was on the website, and removed). I don't know if the testimony was actually classified, but it was taken down after OHS found that it unveiled too much about how the ADIZ operated.

The TFR's like the one that these people violated are set up the same way. What is ordered is a sudden temporary restriction of flight in a region, usually using a geographic point and a distance measurement. While this is all good, a person flying any kind of GA airplane, including the warbirds we all love, has a pretty good chance of violating the airspace if the aircraft is not equipped with Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) or modern Global Positioning System (GPS). In addition, if you are flying with no radio (NORDO) and do not talk to Flight Services (FSS) immediately before flying in an area, you will probably not know about the TFR. So you violate it, and lose your license for 30 days. And for what?

First of all, most interceptions in the DC ADIZ took, on average, 30 minutes to accomplish. What that means is it took 30 minutes for any type of response aircraft- F-16 or Blackhawk helicopter usually- to respond to any penetration of the airspace and acquire and track the violating aircraft. The time of flight, for most aircraft that go more than 100 miles an hour in the air, was less than 20 minutes from the edge of the ADIZ to any of the potential "targets" in the DC ADIZ. That being said, anybody who bombed up their Cessna 150 and went for the White House was going to be successful, regardless of the ADIZ and fighter planes coming after it. So why have it?

I am for defending the country from attack, but at what cost? After all, restricting flight to instrument flight rules filed flights didn't effect that many people. Most people say it would only be a few pilots and not enough to swing a vote in any election, and that is the real reason the ADIZ hasn't gone away. It was a bandaid on a problem that has existed since the airplane was invented. And it hasn't prevented any terrorist attacks that I am aware of.

I don't care what your politics are, Republican or Democrat, Green or Libertarian. The ADIZ was put in place for the peace of mind of a few people who are replaceable (by constitutional law) in the case of a disaster where the President of the United States, Congress or the Supreme Court is compromised- as in, killed by terrorist attack. If that is the case, there is an immediate line of succession to replace them and continue with the government functions using (by law appointed or otherwise succeeded) replacement personnel. So why have an ADIZ?

I have a lot of stories to tell about how the inconsistencies of the ADIZ were constantly changing. During the time I flew in the ADIZ as a student and licensed private pilot, nobody that I had contact with in aviation, and I mean NOBODY that I spoke with had anything but scorn for the system. That includes pilots who flew, controllers who controlled airspace, and people who controlled or enforced law in the airspace (including FBI, TSA, and OHS personnel)- across the board none of them had anything good to say about it off the record. In the years from February 10 2003 to August 30th 2007, I think we wasted a lot of money and time. And this recent event with the four antique planes is just another symptom of the waste.

It is my feeling that we need to re-evaluate the system for putting TFR's in place for public officials in light of the line of succesion in the US Constitution, to truly examine what it costs to protect a person who is totally replaceable, and what it costs in commerce when a POTUS or other official travels.

[gilt]

Lost in this discussion is that both P-40 (normal and expanded) and the Emmittsburg TFR of the past weekend are in MD and show up as TFR's in MD when one searches most (all) TFR on-line sites. In actual fact both Camp David and Emmittsburg are almost on the MD/PA border and the TFR's extend well into PA. In the case of this weekends TFR at Emmittsburg it required in depth research and clicking on a number of map links to discover that in addition to the well publicized expansion of P-40 there was going to be a much larger temporary TFR centered on Emmittsburg.

TFR's that extend into adjacent states have long been a GOTCHA, fortunately P-40 is well publicized, this TFR extended almost 30 miles into PA but was only shown as a MD TFR.

Tom-